Silver

Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches, I'm Erez from ZSA, and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. 2 00:00:13,703 --> 00:00:14,593 How are you, Tisha? 3 00:00:15,073 --> 00:00:15,593 Tisha: I'm good. 4 00:00:15,603 --> 00:00:16,183 How are you? 5 00:00:16,663 --> 00:00:18,313 Erez: I'm really good actually. 6 00:00:18,313 --> 00:00:19,483 It's just beautiful here today. 7 00:00:19,483 --> 00:00:21,323 It feels like summer, not like spring. 8 00:00:21,923 --> 00:00:22,523 Tisha: Oh, wow. 9 00:00:22,523 --> 00:00:25,743 Yeah, it does here too, but I like winter, so... 10 00:00:27,053 --> 00:00:27,103 [laughing] 11 00:00:27,699 --> 00:00:28,039 Erez: I hear you. 12 00:00:28,039 --> 00:00:29,569 Yeah, no, I'm, I'm all about summer. 13 00:00:29,569 --> 00:00:31,279 I like winter too, I like snow. 14 00:00:31,299 --> 00:00:34,209 Like, it's fun, but summer is where it's at for me. 15 00:00:34,259 --> 00:00:34,539 Tisha: Right. 16 00:00:34,689 --> 00:00:35,399 Sure, sure. 17 00:00:35,439 --> 00:00:36,719 I just, I don't like to be warm. 18 00:00:37,119 --> 00:00:37,159 [laughs] 19 00:00:37,509 --> 00:00:38,029 Erez: I hear. 20 00:00:39,039 --> 00:00:40,260 [laughing] All right. 21 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,080 So, today we're going to talk about Silver switches, right? 22 00:00:44,180 --> 00:00:44,520 Tisha: Yup. 23 00:00:44,812 --> 00:00:49,682 Erez: Which for us, I guess, is mainly Kailh Silver with a little bit of Speed Silver in the end? 24 00:00:49,969 --> 00:00:50,909 Tisha: Right, yeah. 25 00:00:50,909 --> 00:00:53,469 The Kailh Silver is quite a popular switch. 26 00:00:53,849 --> 00:00:54,999 Yeah, a lot of people like it. 27 00:00:55,879 --> 00:00:56,479 Erez: Why is that? 28 00:00:57,222 --> 00:01:01,392 Tisha: It's lightweight, so people who type with a light touch like it. 29 00:01:01,502 --> 00:01:06,738 It is, I would say on the quieter side of mechanical switches. 30 00:01:06,815 --> 00:01:08,045 It feels really smooth. 31 00:01:08,208 --> 00:01:15,320 If you tend to find some other types of switches or keyboards tiring on your hands and fingers, this might be a good choice. 32 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:20,980 So yeah, people who want something that feels light and smooth and easy to type on, this is a good and popular choice. 33 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:21,940 Erez: Right. 34 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,660 It's linear like the Reds. 35 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:24,390 Tisha: Right. 36 00:01:24,530 --> 00:01:25,140 Exactly. 37 00:01:25,418 --> 00:01:27,048 Erez: I have been using MX Silver [correction: I actually mean Kailh Silver! 38 00:01:27,048 --> 00:01:28,338 That's my daily driver —EZ] for a long time now. 39 00:01:28,398 --> 00:01:29,938 That's really my daily driver. 40 00:01:30,458 --> 00:01:39,268 And when we were talking about Reds last time, when we're talking about them being kind of boring, just, you know, that's a linear switch, you press down and there you get the character. 41 00:01:39,678 --> 00:01:43,071 And I have to say the MX Silver [Kailh Silver] is kind of similar in that regard. 42 00:01:43,071 --> 00:01:53,975 Like I wouldn't call the tactility of it, like the actual experience of typing on it, exciting in any way, it just kind of works and stays out of the way and is smooth and pleasant. 43 00:01:53,975 --> 00:01:54,225 I don't know. 44 00:01:54,225 --> 00:01:56,185 That's kind of my experience with it, I guess. 45 00:01:56,311 --> 00:01:56,691 Tisha: Right. 46 00:01:56,801 --> 00:01:57,241 Sure. 47 00:01:57,241 --> 00:01:58,401 I think that makes sense. 48 00:01:58,521 --> 00:02:02,221 Yeah it's not, [laughs] I don't know. 49 00:02:02,221 --> 00:02:10,561 It's not a, like, tactile extravaganza, [laughs] but it's pleasant. 50 00:02:10,931 --> 00:02:16,258 I guess not everyone is looking for typing excitement, I suppose. 51 00:02:17,288 --> 00:02:17,698 Erez: Right. 52 00:02:17,768 --> 00:02:22,428 You just shared a, a thing out of, from Twitter on the team chat, uh, what was it? 53 00:02:22,428 --> 00:02:28,766 It was like, "As a mechanical keyboard user, I should be able to type super loud so everyone knows I'm using a mechanical keyboard." 54 00:02:28,766 --> 00:02:29,026 Right? 55 00:02:29,376 --> 00:02:29,566 Tisha: Right. 56 00:02:30,116 --> 00:02:36,066 "As a mechanical keyboard user, I want to type louder so that people know I have a mechanical keyboard." 57 00:02:36,066 --> 00:02:36,193 [laughs] 58 00:02:36,193 --> 00:02:36,320 Erez: Right. 59 00:02:36,446 --> 00:02:37,046 Tisha: Right. 60 00:02:37,116 --> 00:02:38,486 Erez: So not everyone is like that. 61 00:02:38,496 --> 00:02:42,876 We have people on the team that use like super loud switches, but yeah. 62 00:02:42,876 --> 00:02:47,616 I mean, I like typing on calls, so that's one of the reasons why I appreciate the Silver. 63 00:02:48,096 --> 00:02:48,576 Tisha: Right. 64 00:02:48,906 --> 00:02:56,380 Not everyone wants their own keyboard to be loud and not everyone works or lives with a person who is okay with their keyboard being loud. 65 00:02:56,953 --> 00:02:59,729 Erez: Right, and then, we were talking about tactility. 66 00:03:00,299 --> 00:03:06,489 I think one thing that stands out for me in use of the Kailh Silver is the actuation point. 67 00:03:06,749 --> 00:03:16,379 Basically, when you press down, it's smooth and linear and everything, but maybe notable part of the experience for me is how quickly I get the character on my screen. 68 00:03:16,469 --> 00:03:16,969 Tisha: Right. 69 00:03:17,749 --> 00:03:22,059 Kailh Silver and Cherry MX Speed Silver are speed switches. 70 00:03:22,089 --> 00:03:24,679 And these are the first speed switches we've talked about. 71 00:03:25,139 --> 00:03:32,747 And their defining characteristic is that they have a relatively quite high actuation point. 72 00:03:32,932 --> 00:03:48,715 Most, let's say standard, mechanical switches (the non- speed switch) the total key travel, that is the distance that you can press it until it stops, the distance you can press it until it bottoms out, is around four millimeters, you know, give or take. 73 00:03:48,785 --> 00:03:57,421 There's some variation, but that's fairly typical, and they actuate at about the halfway point, right around two millimeters. 74 00:03:57,731 --> 00:03:58,061 Erez: Hmm. 75 00:03:58,209 --> 00:04:05,442 Tisha: Whereas the speed switches actuate at closer to between one quarter and one third of the way down. 76 00:04:05,542 --> 00:04:11,002 So let's say, depending on the switch, between 1 and 1.5 millimeters. 77 00:04:11,702 --> 00:04:15,592 So I mean, one millimeter is tiny, that's hardly anything. 78 00:04:15,719 --> 00:04:16,029 Erez: Right. 79 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:18,674 Tisha: So you barely have to touch the key. 80 00:04:19,216 --> 00:04:21,386 Erez: Which is not always an advantage, right? 81 00:04:21,485 --> 00:04:34,215 I've been using Silver for a long time and I still sometimes find myself going, like getting a whole line of wwwww on my screen, just 'cause I let my finger sit on that key while thinking. 82 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:34,870 Tisha: Right. 83 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:54,960 Like, when you're not typing, you're just thinking, and maybe you're reading something, you've got your hands on the keyboard, especially if you like wiggle your fingers a little bit, or tap them a little bit or something, you could get accidental key presses because of how easy it is to actuate, especially the Silvers. 84 00:04:55,380 --> 00:04:57,680 To a certain degree, the other speed switches as well. 85 00:04:58,086 --> 00:04:58,746 Erez: Right. 86 00:04:59,066 --> 00:05:04,126 Would you say this is a big differentiator from Reds that we were talking about the other day? 87 00:05:04,126 --> 00:05:10,693 Like, is it a big reason to go for Red rather than Silver, if you think you might get actuation by mistake? 88 00:05:11,210 --> 00:05:12,750 Tisha: Yeah, I would say so. 89 00:05:12,830 --> 00:05:16,540 It's probably the biggest most noticeable difference. 90 00:05:16,550 --> 00:05:17,610 At least it is to me. 91 00:05:18,310 --> 00:05:21,240 The Silvers are a little bit lighter. 92 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:27,830 The actuation force is a little smaller, a little less with the Silver switches, but not huge. 93 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:33,469 We're talking a difference of about five grams of force and that's a pretty small difference. 94 00:05:33,479 --> 00:05:33,499 Erez: Yeah. 95 00:05:33,819 --> 00:05:38,069 Tisha: The difference between 45 and 40, that's one eighth, one ninth. 96 00:05:38,569 --> 00:05:50,849 That being said, on paper, it doesn't look like the difference between 2 millimeters and 1.1 or 1.2 would be, but it can feel like a big difference when you're typing. 97 00:05:50,952 --> 00:05:51,452 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 98 00:05:51,562 --> 00:05:51,932 Right. 99 00:05:51,999 --> 00:05:56,119 So it makes the switch more prone to accidental actuation. 100 00:05:56,119 --> 00:05:56,946 Tisha: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 101 00:05:57,359 --> 00:05:58,779 Erez: Which of course begs the question. 102 00:05:58,779 --> 00:05:59,779 So what is the point? 103 00:05:59,819 --> 00:06:01,009 Why did they make it like that? 104 00:06:01,019 --> 00:06:03,819 What are the advantages of this high actuation point? 105 00:06:04,373 --> 00:06:04,903 Tisha: Right. 106 00:06:04,953 --> 00:06:17,755 Well, if you already type with a light touch, if you type with just kind a light little tap, tap, tap, you might like the switch because I kind of describe it as you can just almost float your fingers across the keyboard. 107 00:06:17,785 --> 00:06:21,408 You can type with a lot less, I don't know, finger up-down. 108 00:06:22,028 --> 00:06:24,932 Erez: So you get this very kind of responsive experience? 109 00:06:25,082 --> 00:06:25,712 Tisha: Right. 110 00:06:26,072 --> 00:06:26,412 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 111 00:06:26,442 --> 00:06:33,756 Tisha: And I know that in some avenues and some media, they are marketed towards gamers for their faster response. 112 00:06:33,799 --> 00:06:46,719 I am not a gamer, so I can't really speak to how that works in practice, but that is something you'll see in materials about them or when people talk about them sometimes, is that for some people they can provide a faster response. 113 00:06:47,179 --> 00:06:48,895 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 114 00:06:48,895 --> 00:06:56,338 I think another advantage of this high actuation point is that you can actually put in an O-ring or three. 115 00:06:56,608 --> 00:06:57,088 Right? 116 00:06:57,505 --> 00:06:57,835 Tisha: Right. 117 00:06:57,835 --> 00:06:58,105 Yeah. 118 00:06:58,105 --> 00:07:00,425 You know, depending on your keycaps and stuff. 119 00:07:00,925 --> 00:07:04,175 In a lot of them you can put in two, and in some of them you can put in three. 120 00:07:04,295 --> 00:07:07,345 Depending on your keycaps and the O-rings 'cause they come in different thicknesses. 121 00:07:07,607 --> 00:07:17,702 But yeah, if you want to make your keys feel shallower, then you can add some O-rings and, and make your bottom out distance shorter. 122 00:07:18,053 --> 00:07:20,333 Erez: And my Silver switches would still work? 123 00:07:20,393 --> 00:07:20,633 Tisha: Right. 124 00:07:20,643 --> 00:07:20,723 Exactly. 125 00:07:20,733 --> 00:07:23,693 Erez: Unlike say if I tried that with the Reds or something? 126 00:07:24,011 --> 00:07:24,811 Tisha: Right. 127 00:07:25,219 --> 00:07:36,231 You could, again, depending on the thickness of the O-rings, you could stack them high enough that you would not be able to push the key far enough to actuate it anymore. 128 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:36,810 Erez: Right. 129 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:42,597 Yeah, no, it kind of sounds like I was saying that you can't use O-rings with Reds, which of course you can, right? 130 00:07:42,780 --> 00:07:43,290 Tisha: Right. 131 00:07:43,310 --> 00:07:43,590 Yeah. 132 00:07:43,590 --> 00:07:44,060 Totally. 133 00:07:44,270 --> 00:07:48,753 Erez: But it's just that you can double up with Silver, but not always with Red. 134 00:07:48,863 --> 00:07:49,103 Right? 135 00:07:49,133 --> 00:07:56,340 I mean, at some point with a thick enough ring, because Silver has a higher actuation point then you can still use thick rings or multiple rings. 136 00:07:56,540 --> 00:07:57,160 Tisha: Right. 137 00:07:57,253 --> 00:08:02,832 Erez: So is that the switch you recommend to people who are looking for a more laptop-like experience? 138 00:08:03,682 --> 00:08:04,772 Tisha: Yeah, it is. 139 00:08:04,822 --> 00:08:14,552 Now you're not going to be able to closely or super closely replicate that feeling, just because you're talking about very different types of keyboards. 140 00:08:14,932 --> 00:08:26,553 But, to me at least, the closest that you'll get to a laptop keyboard or a chiclet keyboard, your Apple Magic type thing, would be Silver switches with O-rings. 141 00:08:26,607 --> 00:08:30,977 Because you've got the very light, smooth feeling action. 142 00:08:31,047 --> 00:08:34,377 No clicks, no tactile bumps, fairly quiet. 143 00:08:34,420 --> 00:08:45,723 And then if you add O-rings, you've got a somewhat shallower, somewhat a shorter key travel, and you have the keys actuating very quickly when you press them down. 144 00:08:45,773 --> 00:08:47,303 So you only need to press them down a teeny bit. 145 00:08:47,666 --> 00:08:48,016 Erez: Right. 146 00:08:48,386 --> 00:08:53,106 I gotta say, I love how you said, "The Apple Magic type thing." 147 00:08:53,196 --> 00:08:57,104 [laughing] We are clearly mechanical keyboard people, not... 148 00:08:58,134 --> 00:08:58,264 Tisha: Right. 149 00:08:58,264 --> 00:09:01,024 Erez: ...not huge fans of the "Magic type thing". 150 00:09:01,724 --> 00:09:01,844 Tisha: Right. 151 00:09:02,244 --> 00:09:10,334 [laughs] And I'm not a heavy user of Apple hardware, so I don't necessarily know what they call these things. 152 00:09:11,904 --> 00:09:12,520 I don't know what this... 153 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:12,677 Erez: They're flat. 154 00:09:12,677 --> 00:09:13,589 They're very flat. 155 00:09:13,844 --> 00:09:14,134 Tisha: Right. 156 00:09:14,134 --> 00:09:17,274 They're flat, and maybe the Magic ones are just the little white... 157 00:09:17,294 --> 00:09:17,754 Anyway. 158 00:09:17,845 --> 00:09:17,905 Erez: No. 159 00:09:17,905 --> 00:09:18,265 That's great. 160 00:09:18,295 --> 00:09:19,345 No, I totally get that. 161 00:09:19,565 --> 00:09:19,895 That's, yeah. 162 00:09:19,895 --> 00:09:20,565 That's what we do. 163 00:09:20,615 --> 00:09:20,785 Tisha: Right. 164 00:09:20,785 --> 00:09:20,935 If you're 165 00:09:20,935 --> 00:09:25,095 Erez: not into those very flat Magic things, then it is for you. 166 00:09:25,545 --> 00:09:25,965 Tisha: Right. 167 00:09:25,995 --> 00:09:26,385 Erez: Cool. 168 00:09:26,495 --> 00:09:30,385 So we kinda mainly talked about Kailh Silver, I guess. 169 00:09:30,475 --> 00:09:33,955 Although many of these properties go for both. 170 00:09:33,955 --> 00:09:34,335 Right? 171 00:09:34,485 --> 00:09:34,935 Tisha: Right. 172 00:09:35,185 --> 00:09:44,362 The Kailh Silver and the Cherry MX Speed Silver are very similar, kind of analogous to Cherry MX Red and Kailh Box Red. 173 00:09:44,396 --> 00:09:47,612 They're pretty similar switches, the differences are subtle. 174 00:09:48,090 --> 00:09:49,320 Erez: Even more similar, I would say. 175 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,340 Right, because the key stem looks the same. 176 00:09:52,460 --> 00:09:52,740 Right? 177 00:09:52,740 --> 00:09:54,060 It's it's not a box... 178 00:09:54,070 --> 00:09:54,550 Tisha: Right. 179 00:09:54,810 --> 00:09:55,530 Erez: ...Kailh Silver. 180 00:09:55,605 --> 00:09:59,475 So maybe a little bit like Kailh Brown and MX Brown? 181 00:10:00,064 --> 00:10:06,590 Tisha: Actually, I find those two, even though they look like they would be very much the same, I find them more different. 182 00:10:06,780 --> 00:10:07,040 Erez: Hmm. 183 00:10:07,151 --> 00:10:11,874 Tisha: But it's the same idea, you know, they're meant to be basically clones of each other. 184 00:10:11,937 --> 00:10:12,297 Erez: Right. 185 00:10:12,374 --> 00:10:12,604 Right. 186 00:10:12,624 --> 00:10:14,607 Or rather, call a spade a spade. 187 00:10:14,607 --> 00:10:17,064 I mean, Kailh basically tried to clone the Cherry ones. 188 00:10:17,064 --> 00:10:17,214 Right? 189 00:10:17,214 --> 00:10:18,384 Cherry was first of course. 190 00:10:18,734 --> 00:10:18,904 Tisha: Right. 191 00:10:19,274 --> 00:10:19,584 Right. 192 00:10:19,624 --> 00:10:20,024 Yeah. 193 00:10:20,214 --> 00:10:23,061 It's Kailh's version of the Cherry switches. 194 00:10:23,541 --> 00:10:30,861 Erez: Right, and in general, I guess now that we're touching on the clone aspect of it, I think there is this perception of clones as being knockoffs. 195 00:10:31,071 --> 00:10:34,601 I mean, it's practically synonymous and like, oh, lower quality. 196 00:10:34,601 --> 00:10:34,961 Right? 197 00:10:35,141 --> 00:10:35,581 Tisha: Right. 198 00:10:35,641 --> 00:10:39,941 Erez: And I haven't found that to be the case when it comes to Kailh personally. 199 00:10:40,021 --> 00:10:48,511 Like, I think they are as good if not better than Cherry MX, which is kind of an interesting case I think, when it comes to a copy of something. 200 00:10:48,575 --> 00:10:49,245 Tisha: Right. 201 00:10:49,345 --> 00:10:49,675 Yeah. 202 00:10:49,685 --> 00:10:58,476 In some cases, you make a clone of a product so that you can offer it cheaper, but another reason is so that you can maybe put your own spin on it. 203 00:10:58,486 --> 00:11:02,346 Maybe make some improvements, and there are differences in the clones. 204 00:11:02,391 --> 00:11:06,631 In some cases they're really, really small differences, but they're there. 205 00:11:06,701 --> 00:11:13,871 The switches that we carry, both the Kailh and Cherry versions, none of them are 100% the same. 206 00:11:13,964 --> 00:11:14,474 Erez: Right. 207 00:11:14,594 --> 00:11:24,454 And you know, I also think that one of the traits that make knockoffs poor quality is often intellectual property violations. 208 00:11:24,454 --> 00:11:24,644 Right? 209 00:11:24,644 --> 00:11:31,734 If something is patented and you know that they're going to come after you, then reputable manufacturers aren't gonna go and make a clone of it. 210 00:11:31,734 --> 00:11:31,739 Right? 211 00:11:31,739 --> 00:11:31,954 Tisha: Right. 212 00:11:31,954 --> 00:11:35,784 Erez: So you always end up with these shoddy kind of fly-by-night type production. 213 00:11:36,164 --> 00:11:40,954 Whereas the Cherry patent on mechanical switches expired. 214 00:11:41,404 --> 00:11:48,884 So you can have big reputable manufacturer come and tell you, "Okay, this is Cherry compatible and nobody can come after us." 215 00:11:48,944 --> 00:11:49,324 Right? 216 00:11:49,514 --> 00:11:49,874 Tisha: Right. 217 00:11:50,124 --> 00:11:53,724 Erez: So I think that's another big distinction when it comes to clones. 218 00:11:53,744 --> 00:11:57,987 Like these clones are okay, because there is no patent for these. 219 00:11:58,044 --> 00:11:58,534 Tisha: Right. 220 00:11:58,564 --> 00:12:00,104 Erez: For, for MX like switches. 221 00:12:00,344 --> 00:12:00,674 Tisha: Right. 222 00:12:00,744 --> 00:12:01,474 Erez: It expired. 223 00:12:01,474 --> 00:12:02,344 I mean, that's the point of it. 224 00:12:02,344 --> 00:12:05,754 Like the point of a patent, right, is that after a while everybody can use it. 225 00:12:05,754 --> 00:12:09,374 Like people sometimes miss that point, but the point is that it expires in the end. 226 00:12:09,654 --> 00:12:10,164 Tisha: Right. 227 00:12:10,234 --> 00:12:10,714 Yeah. 228 00:12:10,924 --> 00:12:16,371 And then the market opens up and you can get clones, you can get variations on a theme, things like that. 229 00:12:16,741 --> 00:12:21,131 And Kailh isn't the only ones making Cherry MX style switches. 230 00:12:21,661 --> 00:12:25,316 So I'm not sure, is it Gateron, is that how it's pronounced? 231 00:12:25,326 --> 00:12:26,056 This is one of those... 232 00:12:26,286 --> 00:12:27,061 Erez: I say, I say Gateron. 233 00:12:27,061 --> 00:12:27,636 I don't know. 234 00:12:27,646 --> 00:12:27,796 Tisha: Okay. 235 00:12:28,126 --> 00:12:28,546 Right. 236 00:12:28,716 --> 00:12:34,674 It's one of those things that I see all the time, but I don't know that I've ever actually heard anyone say. 237 00:12:35,104 --> 00:12:35,144 [laughs] 238 00:12:35,754 --> 00:12:36,114 Erez: Right. 239 00:12:36,784 --> 00:12:45,114 Tisha: They also make Cherry style switches, kind of switches in the same family, Red and Brown and Blue, et cetera. 240 00:12:45,199 --> 00:12:55,064 It's probably not universal, but if you see a switch with a color in its name, you can probably infer some characteristics of it. 241 00:12:55,114 --> 00:13:02,471 Like, most Red switches you see are going to be kind of light/medium weight linear switches. 242 00:13:02,471 --> 00:13:02,551 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 243 00:13:02,591 --> 00:13:07,322 Tisha: And most Brown switches that you see are going to be fairly lightweight, tactile switches. 244 00:13:07,322 --> 00:13:08,992 And the Blue ones are going to be clicky. 245 00:13:09,062 --> 00:13:15,754 Erez: And then people take it a step further and like make Pinks or Purples, which are kind of riffs on that same concept. 246 00:13:15,754 --> 00:13:16,114 Right? 247 00:13:16,214 --> 00:13:16,824 Tisha: Right. 248 00:13:17,034 --> 00:13:17,464 Right. 249 00:13:17,564 --> 00:13:17,814 Yeah. 250 00:13:17,824 --> 00:13:19,629 Navy and Jade and yeah. 251 00:13:19,914 --> 00:13:20,334 Erez: Right. 252 00:13:20,381 --> 00:13:21,351 So, okay. 253 00:13:21,351 --> 00:13:23,251 So going back to Silvers then. 254 00:13:23,261 --> 00:13:23,501 Tisha: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 255 00:13:23,521 --> 00:13:25,621 Erez: Is there anything we want to say? 256 00:13:25,791 --> 00:13:28,901 Well, I can think of one thing I actually want to say about the MX one, right? 257 00:13:28,901 --> 00:13:33,001 There is a key distinction between the Kailh Silver and the MX Silver that we carry. 258 00:13:33,361 --> 00:13:33,971 Tisha: Right. 259 00:13:34,010 --> 00:13:38,880 The Cherry version, the Cherry MX Speed Silver is not RGB compatible. 260 00:13:38,950 --> 00:13:38,980 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 261 00:13:38,990 --> 00:13:44,321 Tisha: So we don't offer it for the Moonlander because it blocks the backlighting. 262 00:13:44,401 --> 00:13:51,621 You can get it for the ErgoDox EZ Original or Shine, or the Planck EZ standard. 263 00:13:51,736 --> 00:13:54,376 But yeah, no Glow or Moonlander. 264 00:13:54,442 --> 00:13:54,812 Erez: Right. 265 00:13:55,032 --> 00:13:56,442 Tisha: That's the big obvious difference. 266 00:13:57,462 --> 00:14:11,743 Erez: I think you had mentioned in the Red episode that the MX Reds feels slightly scratchier than the Kailh Reds, do you find it to be the same case with Kailh Silver versus MX Speed Silver, or are they both equally as smooth generally? 267 00:14:12,075 --> 00:14:13,625 Tisha: Maybe. 268 00:14:13,855 --> 00:14:25,679 Boy, that is a tough one because in that regard, I find them very close to the point that I wonder if any difference I might be feeling is just the power of suggestion. 269 00:14:26,019 --> 00:14:26,665 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 270 00:14:26,665 --> 00:14:26,839 Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 271 00:14:26,839 --> 00:14:27,479 Tisha: They might be. 272 00:14:27,529 --> 00:14:38,439 There is a slight difference in the feel, and, yeah, I think that people could feel that as a scratchier/smoother, but that's a really small difference. 273 00:14:38,459 --> 00:14:44,226 I also find the Cherry to be just a tiny, tiny bit firmer feeling. 274 00:14:44,306 --> 00:14:45,526 Like just the tiniest bit. 275 00:14:45,856 --> 00:14:46,516 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 276 00:14:46,526 --> 00:14:49,240 Tisha: They're both quite light; I tend to say easy to type on. 277 00:14:49,279 --> 00:15:01,019 They're not going to challenge your fingers, [laughs] which is a good thing for a lot of people because it also means that you may find your hands and fingers feeling less tired at the end of a day of typing. 278 00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:12,103 So they're both really light, but the Cherry is just a tiny bit less light and just a little bit crisper feeling, which is not really an easy thing to describe. 279 00:15:12,513 --> 00:15:21,063 I think it's kind of a bottom out thing that, to me, the Kailh Silver has a very slightly softer feeling bottom-out than the Cherry. 280 00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:21,973 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 281 00:15:21,973 --> 00:15:25,980 Tisha: And I'm not sure what's behind that, maybe a difference in the springs. 282 00:15:26,357 --> 00:15:32,887 Erez: It could be as simple as one or two more turns of the spring, right, or maybe a slightly different alloy mix in the spring or whatever. 283 00:15:32,887 --> 00:15:33,147 Right? 284 00:15:33,327 --> 00:15:33,747 Tisha: Right. 285 00:15:33,757 --> 00:15:34,267 Right. 286 00:15:34,437 --> 00:15:36,077 Erez: Such fine tolerances. 287 00:15:36,110 --> 00:15:41,290 But I want to get back to a point you had mentioned, which is a very interesting thought. 288 00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:43,100 So you said the power of suggestion. 289 00:15:43,135 --> 00:15:50,175 Do you think that for many people using mechanical keyboards, how much of a factor is that with key switches? 290 00:15:50,175 --> 00:15:58,765 Like, let's say, somebody would tell me, or a customer, "Oh, this switch was a little scratchy, and then the customer goes in and types on it. 291 00:15:59,145 --> 00:16:02,695 Will it feel like, will they say, "Oh yeah, it's kind of scratchy." 292 00:16:02,731 --> 00:16:07,591 You know those experiments where they give you three glasses with the same exact wine. 293 00:16:07,601 --> 00:16:07,841 Tisha: [laughs] Right. 294 00:16:08,041 --> 00:16:11,251 Erez: And one they say, "Oh, that's super expensive and one is very cheap." 295 00:16:11,251 --> 00:16:14,091 And you actually enjoy the more expensive one more. 296 00:16:14,091 --> 00:16:15,171 You know, those experiments? 297 00:16:15,261 --> 00:16:15,781 Tisha: Right. 298 00:16:15,791 --> 00:16:16,291 Yeah. 299 00:16:16,391 --> 00:16:16,651 Right. 300 00:16:16,681 --> 00:16:19,901 Or the ones where they add red food coloring to the white wines and- 301 00:16:20,161 --> 00:16:21,011 Erez: Yeah, exactly. 302 00:16:21,031 --> 00:16:22,061 All, all that kind of... 303 00:16:22,061 --> 00:16:22,931 Tisha: [laughs] Yeah. 304 00:16:23,261 --> 00:16:25,935 ... Erez: Predictably Irrational, Dan Ariely type of stuff. 305 00:16:26,295 --> 00:16:36,788 So would you say mechanical keyswitches are prone to that sort of subjectivity and bias in use? 306 00:16:37,333 --> 00:16:41,543 Tisha: Sure, but just kind of to the extent that anything else is. 307 00:16:41,673 --> 00:16:43,943 It's like, we're humans and that's the way we work. 308 00:16:44,433 --> 00:17:03,307 [laughs] If you read the description of a switch, which is necessarily going to be somewhat subjective, if you read it before you try it yourself, you're going to have in your head, "Oh, this switch is medium weight with a loud click that is high pitched and a crisp-feeling, tactile bump." 309 00:17:03,705 --> 00:17:07,945 That's what you're going to expect to feel, and that's kind of a powerful thing. 310 00:17:08,001 --> 00:17:15,806 It can take a lot to "break free of" is a little bit of an extreme way to say this, but to break free of that expectation. 311 00:17:16,191 --> 00:17:16,661 Erez: Right. 312 00:17:16,711 --> 00:17:19,281 The point where, you know, I wonder this would be a fascinating experiment. 313 00:17:19,311 --> 00:17:30,351 Like, if you took two people and gave them both keyboards with Kailh Silver, and one of them, you told them, "This key is very prone to accidental actuation if you rest your fingers on it." 314 00:17:30,621 --> 00:17:32,641 And the other one, you didn't say anything about that. 315 00:17:32,871 --> 00:17:34,031 Who would get more... 316 00:17:34,561 --> 00:17:34,944 Tisha: Oh, right. 317 00:17:34,944 --> 00:17:36,681 Erez: ...who would get more mistypes? 318 00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:38,790 That would be fun to, to try someday. 319 00:17:38,884 --> 00:17:40,492 But I can see what you're saying. 320 00:17:40,522 --> 00:17:57,297 And in particular, I think it's interesting when talking to customers who say, for example, "Oh, I want this very specific keyswitch and because you don't carry it, I'm not going to buy a keyboard," which is 1) kind of funny because you can always get the switch and just put the switch into the board. 321 00:17:57,567 --> 00:17:57,987 Tisha: Right. 322 00:17:58,467 --> 00:18:15,557 Erez: But, even if you don't go and get the switch, maybe you don't want the expense and all that, the keyboard is very expensive as it is, of course, I wonder if let's say you were after a particular linear switch, and you've got a slightly different linear switch that we, you know, that is available, how noticeable would the difference be? 323 00:18:15,887 --> 00:18:17,227 Really, you know? 324 00:18:17,644 --> 00:18:18,777 Tisha: Right, yeah. 325 00:18:18,827 --> 00:18:27,329 At the risk of sounding like your mom, they really are a sort of "try for yourself" sort of thing. 326 00:18:27,759 --> 00:18:34,029 I sound like I'm advising you to eat broccoli because come on, if you try it, you might really like it. 327 00:18:34,029 --> 00:18:34,079 [laughing] 328 00:18:35,039 --> 00:18:37,294 Erez: That's definitely the quote for this episode. 329 00:18:37,619 --> 00:18:38,849 I mean, oh yeah. 330 00:18:41,749 --> 00:18:42,219 [laughing] That's right. 331 00:18:42,429 --> 00:18:45,539 Tisha: I'm not even a mom, so why I sound like this is a mystery. 332 00:18:45,769 --> 00:18:53,809 Maybe a better way to put it is to just kind of trust your own fingers and the way things feel to you. 333 00:18:53,876 --> 00:19:00,042 I mean, even if everything you read about a switch or, you know, a keyboard or this goes for anything. 334 00:19:00,142 --> 00:19:04,992 Even if everything you read about something says, "Oh, you're not going to like, it's terrible. 335 00:19:05,072 --> 00:19:06,842 I don't know why anyone would like this." 336 00:19:07,362 --> 00:19:12,402 If it feels good to you and if it works for you, who cares, that's the right thing for you. 337 00:19:12,449 --> 00:19:12,799 Erez: Right. 338 00:19:13,139 --> 00:19:14,109 That makes total sense. 339 00:19:14,741 --> 00:19:19,546 Tisha: As with so many things, especially when there's a strong hobbyist culture, there are trends. 340 00:19:19,556 --> 00:19:24,635 I've seen in the last couple of years switches, pop up and become, you know, super popular. 341 00:19:24,635 --> 00:19:28,025 Like everyone wants this thing, it's the best thing. 342 00:19:28,565 --> 00:19:33,991 And then a couple months later, we don't hear anything about it anymore because the next best thing has come along. 343 00:19:34,133 --> 00:19:42,178 So there aren't, except when you're talking about quantifiable things like failure rates and stuff, there really aren't absolutes. 344 00:19:42,259 --> 00:19:46,559 There are people who swear by, you know, Kailh switches, Kailh are superior switches. 345 00:19:46,659 --> 00:19:48,849 And there are people who swear by Cherry switches. 346 00:19:48,849 --> 00:19:50,259 You know, "these are the originals. 347 00:19:50,259 --> 00:19:51,709 These guys know what they're doing." 348 00:19:52,319 --> 00:19:53,599 And you know what, okay! 349 00:19:53,949 --> 00:19:54,409 Erez: Yeah. 350 00:19:54,449 --> 00:19:59,892 Like, it's not something that one viewpoint will be objectively the right one right? 351 00:19:59,922 --> 00:20:00,342 Ever. 352 00:20:00,642 --> 00:20:01,212 Tisha: Right. 353 00:20:01,492 --> 00:20:08,036 I'm going to betray a little bit my upbringing in the rural Midwest, it's like pickup trucks. 354 00:20:08,036 --> 00:20:10,446 There are the Chevy people and the Ford people. 355 00:20:10,446 --> 00:20:10,639 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 356 00:20:10,736 --> 00:20:11,976 Tisha: And, you know? 357 00:20:12,066 --> 00:20:12,756 Erez: That's a great analogy. 358 00:20:13,136 --> 00:20:14,466 No, actually I totally see that. 359 00:20:14,766 --> 00:20:19,436 Tisha: Right and where I live now, there are the Cubs people and the White Sox people. 360 00:20:20,326 --> 00:20:22,466 And you know what, you like what you like. 361 00:20:22,786 --> 00:20:25,136 If it works for you, it works for you. 362 00:20:25,626 --> 00:20:28,886 It doesn't matter if someone else says, "Oh no, that thing's terrible." 363 00:20:29,506 --> 00:20:33,266 It's terrible for them, and I'm sure that there's a good reason it's terrible for them. 364 00:20:33,332 --> 00:20:42,946 Or, on the other hand, if you read that something is the best thing ever and you try it and it doesn't work for you, well, you know, you're different than everyone else. 365 00:20:43,616 --> 00:20:43,656 [laughs] 366 00:20:44,158 --> 00:20:46,238 Erez: This brings up a different question. 367 00:20:46,438 --> 00:20:58,454 Do you think that a switch tester, you know, one of those big boards that has a zillion different switches, one of each on it, but it's not actually a keyboard, so you can't see the actuation, you can just get the tactility, the feel of the switch. 368 00:20:58,501 --> 00:20:59,701 Is it a good idea? 369 00:20:59,731 --> 00:21:09,058 If I'm reading online or listening to this episode and just thinking and mulling over what switches should I get, will a switch test or help me make up my mind, or is it a waste of money? 370 00:21:09,512 --> 00:21:12,342 Tisha: I think in a lot of cases they can be really helpful. 371 00:21:12,376 --> 00:21:21,186 In my opinion, of course I think they're most helpful for people who don't have very much familiarity yet with mechanical keyboards and switches. 372 00:21:21,456 --> 00:21:27,756 I think they're most helpful in figuring out I guess, maybe the family of switch that you like best. 373 00:21:28,005 --> 00:21:29,555 Erez: Tactile versus linear versus clicky? 374 00:21:30,715 --> 00:21:31,335 Tisha: Exactly. 375 00:21:31,385 --> 00:21:33,095 Or heavier versus lighter. 376 00:21:33,725 --> 00:21:40,610 They're not great for the finer points of very similar switches, like the Kailh Silver and the Cherry Speed Silver. 377 00:21:40,668 --> 00:21:50,171 One of each in a switch tester might not be super helpful for determining if you would like to type on a keyboard full of one or the other. 378 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,500 'Cause that's a very different experience obviously. 379 00:21:52,566 --> 00:22:02,973 So I think that they're really good for bigger picture things, but for a lot of people, they might not be super helpful for super fine distinctions. 380 00:22:03,269 --> 00:22:03,789 Erez: Right. 381 00:22:03,863 --> 00:22:14,703 I think maybe when coupled with reading descriptions and watching videos, they're nice because you can kind of connect the video or the description or this episode, with what you're feeling. 382 00:22:14,729 --> 00:22:14,999 Tisha: Sure. 383 00:22:14,999 --> 00:22:16,479 Erez: Physically and say oh they say it's smooth. 384 00:22:16,479 --> 00:22:16,739 Okay. 385 00:22:16,739 --> 00:22:18,579 This is what smooth feels like to them. 386 00:22:18,629 --> 00:22:27,909 But yeah, I see what you're saying about the finer points, especially that, for example, with speed switches, like the Silvers, the actuation point is such a big part of the experience. 387 00:22:28,219 --> 00:22:32,169 That's not something you can see at all with a tester. 388 00:22:32,545 --> 00:22:32,845 Tisha: Right. 389 00:22:32,905 --> 00:22:35,715 It's just a little plastic box. 390 00:22:35,727 --> 00:22:37,127 It's not hooked up to anything. 391 00:22:37,150 --> 00:22:41,173 So you're not going to be able to tell what the switch does, only what it feels like. 392 00:22:41,201 --> 00:22:41,581 Erez: Right. 393 00:22:41,604 --> 00:22:46,796 Tisha: I've seen ones that are 64 and 72 or even more switches, that's too much. 394 00:22:47,722 --> 00:22:47,762 [laughs] 395 00:22:47,772 --> 00:22:48,242 Erez: In what way? 396 00:22:49,166 --> 00:22:51,596 Tisha: To me, of course, not for everyone. 397 00:22:51,646 --> 00:22:54,846 Obviously they're sold, people buy them, people find them helpful. 398 00:22:55,176 --> 00:22:57,718 But, I think that they're just kind of overload. 399 00:22:57,728 --> 00:23:04,431 So, let's say you've got, five different types of Blue switches and of five different types of Brown switches and stuff. 400 00:23:04,481 --> 00:23:06,667 It gets hard to... 401 00:23:07,116 --> 00:23:09,236 Erez: Like the distinction is not as clear. 402 00:23:09,236 --> 00:23:17,023 It's like they are too similar, like the switches are too similar to each other to justify five slightly different shades of Blue? 403 00:23:17,077 --> 00:23:17,697 Tisha: Right. 404 00:23:17,769 --> 00:23:21,829 I guess it would be cool if you know you want a Blue switch, but you're not sure which... 405 00:23:22,219 --> 00:23:23,189 Ooh, I'm a poet! 406 00:23:23,199 --> 00:23:31,920 [laughing] It would be cool to be able to buy a tester that has just five Blues and not the 100 switch tester with everything in the world. 407 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,990 I don't know if that sort of thing exists. 408 00:23:34,350 --> 00:23:34,635 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 409 00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:42,287 Tisha: I also find with my own experience with using switch testers you can get a little bit over-focused if that makes sense. 410 00:23:42,347 --> 00:23:46,984 It can be kind of like saying the same word over and over again till the word loses its meaning. 411 00:23:47,134 --> 00:23:48,334 Erez: Oh, okay. 412 00:23:48,344 --> 00:23:48,974 I get it. 413 00:23:49,384 --> 00:23:57,641 Tisha: You're just like pushing a couple of switches over and over and over again until what you're doing is kind of meaningless and it becomes divorced from its context. 414 00:23:57,831 --> 00:23:58,371 I guess. 415 00:23:58,621 --> 00:24:06,474 Erez: Because in the real world, like, of course I'm not going to like meditatively press down on this single key, I'm going to just be in a flurry of typing. 416 00:24:06,521 --> 00:24:06,931 Tisha: Right. 417 00:24:06,941 --> 00:24:12,701 Erez: And so the actual motion and how much attention I pay to it will be very different. 418 00:24:12,728 --> 00:24:13,328 Tisha: Right. 419 00:24:13,404 --> 00:24:13,694 Erez: Yeah. 420 00:24:13,704 --> 00:24:21,420 This is a really interesting discussion because I find that, I guess even as a society, we're very much focused on tools. 421 00:24:21,770 --> 00:24:28,070 Like, you can get a tester, but simply having a tester doesn't necessarily mean you're going to use it right. 422 00:24:28,097 --> 00:24:28,697 You know what I mean? 423 00:24:28,697 --> 00:24:30,777 Like the tools versus technique. 424 00:24:30,807 --> 00:24:31,157 Tisha: Right. 425 00:24:31,157 --> 00:24:34,732 Erez: Versus like the understanding, okay here is the limitations of a tester, here's what it's going to be useful for. 426 00:24:34,902 --> 00:24:36,362 Here's what it's not so good for. 427 00:24:36,682 --> 00:24:40,342 That kind of distinction doesn't come with a tester. 428 00:24:40,352 --> 00:24:42,082 I mean, it comes with experience. 429 00:24:42,082 --> 00:24:42,402 Right? 430 00:24:42,572 --> 00:24:42,972 Tisha: Right. 431 00:24:43,332 --> 00:24:43,672 Right. 432 00:24:43,685 --> 00:24:52,932 I don't want to give the impression that I think they're not useful because they are, but they may be differently useful than you might expect is the way I would put it. 433 00:24:52,932 --> 00:24:53,122 Erez: Hmm. 434 00:24:53,312 --> 00:24:55,432 Yeah, no, I see that for sure. 435 00:24:55,465 --> 00:25:07,435 Like for example, maybe you get a tester because you are intent on one very particular Purple switch or a Pink or whatever, and then the tester allows you to see, oh, actually the Silver can work for me. 436 00:25:07,435 --> 00:25:11,655 Like it's not that different, which could be a surprising outcome. 437 00:25:12,155 --> 00:25:12,695 Tisha: Right. 438 00:25:12,745 --> 00:25:13,245 Totally. 439 00:25:13,315 --> 00:25:13,975 Erez: Awesome. 440 00:25:14,012 --> 00:25:15,762 Is there anything else you want to say about Silver? 441 00:25:16,292 --> 00:25:26,575 Tisha: I don't think so offhand, if you want something light, easy to type on, fairly quiet on its own, but O-rings will make them a bit quieter, then this is a good choice. 442 00:25:26,595 --> 00:25:29,305 It's a popular switch because it's nice. 443 00:25:30,315 --> 00:25:32,165 [laughs] It's pleasant and nice. 444 00:25:32,872 --> 00:25:40,836 Erez: I'm just looking here actually, I'm navigating our website and I think it is the default linear switch that we... 445 00:25:40,929 --> 00:25:41,159 oh, no. 446 00:25:41,159 --> 00:25:42,309 That would be the Box Red. 447 00:25:42,629 --> 00:25:43,089 Okay. 448 00:25:43,299 --> 00:25:45,899 The Box Red is our default in here and not the Silver. 449 00:25:46,089 --> 00:25:46,309 Tisha: Okay. 450 00:25:46,309 --> 00:25:48,129 Erez: But you say the Silver is still popular. 451 00:25:48,203 --> 00:25:48,713 Tisha: Oh, yeah. 452 00:25:48,783 --> 00:25:49,133 Yeah. 453 00:25:49,283 --> 00:25:54,373 I think, I think it's the kind of thing that the people who like it really, really like it. 454 00:25:54,753 --> 00:25:55,153 Erez: Yeah. 455 00:25:55,376 --> 00:25:55,996 I really like it. 456 00:25:55,996 --> 00:25:56,306 Yeah. 457 00:25:56,586 --> 00:25:56,936 Tisha: Right. 458 00:25:57,036 --> 00:26:01,596 Yeah it has, [laughs] it has fans, I think. 459 00:26:01,646 --> 00:26:03,656 Maybe more than certain other types of switches. 460 00:26:03,846 --> 00:26:04,186 Erez: Right. 461 00:26:04,233 --> 00:26:04,603 Cool. 462 00:26:04,653 --> 00:26:04,983 Awesome. 463 00:26:04,983 --> 00:26:05,873 Well, thank you very much. 464 00:26:06,103 --> 00:26:06,663 Tisha: Okay, sure. 465 00:26:06,693 --> 00:26:06,983 Thank you. 466 00:26:07,583 --> 00:26:09,088 Erez: [laughs] Talk to you in the next one. 467 00:26:09,088 --> 00:26:09,091 Tisha: Yeah. 468 00:26:09,091 --> 00:26:09,094 Bye-bye. 469 00:26:09,094 --> 00:26:09,103 Erez: Bye.