Introduction

Hello and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches. 2 00:00:07,343 --> 00:00:11,058 I'm Erez from ZSA and with me here today is Tisha, our resident 3 00:00:11,303 --> 00:00:13,223 switch expert and support lead. 4 00:00:13,403 --> 00:00:14,243 How's it going, Tisha? 5 00:00:14,683 --> 00:00:15,053 Tisha: Hi. 6 00:00:15,193 --> 00:00:15,803 it's going okay. 7 00:00:15,823 --> 00:00:16,283 How are you? 8 00:00:16,813 --> 00:00:17,593 Erez: Not too bad. 9 00:00:18,023 --> 00:00:18,063 Tisha: [laughs]. 10 00:00:18,923 --> 00:00:19,333 Erez: Okay. 11 00:00:19,333 --> 00:00:25,003 So , today, I guess let's talk about some things that people who are new 12 00:00:25,003 --> 00:00:29,273 to mechanical keyboards might want to know before we dive in deep into what 13 00:00:29,563 --> 00:00:33,883 the differences between key switches are, what are key switches, right? 14 00:00:33,883 --> 00:00:36,083 Like what's a mechanical key switch anyway? 15 00:00:36,443 --> 00:00:37,119 Tisha: Mm-hmm [ Affirmative] 16 00:00:37,119 --> 00:00:39,639 Erez: So what's, what's your take on it? 17 00:00:39,679 --> 00:00:39,799 Tisha: [laughs] 18 00:00:40,119 --> 00:00:41,629 Erez: What's a mechanical key switch? 19 00:00:41,729 --> 00:00:49,567 Tisha: Well very basically it's the thing that lets your keyboard send 20 00:00:49,725 --> 00:00:52,505 stuff [laughs] to your computer. 21 00:00:52,715 --> 00:00:57,955 There's there's an individual switch, an individual separate switch per key. 22 00:00:58,605 --> 00:01:06,525 A very small device with a spring and metal contacts inside and, depending 23 00:01:06,525 --> 00:01:08,845 on the switch, maybe some other stuff. 24 00:01:08,895 --> 00:01:09,425 Erez: Right. 25 00:01:09,435 --> 00:01:13,715 So you kind of emphasize the individual switch there, that I guess is in 26 00:01:13,715 --> 00:01:19,065 comparison to, say, rubber dome keyboards and things like that? 27 00:01:20,225 --> 00:01:20,885 Tisha: Right. 28 00:01:21,065 --> 00:01:27,719 Where in a rubber dome keyboard, you've got basically a rubber sheet that has a 29 00:01:27,719 --> 00:01:33,995 little dome in the position of each key and when you press the key it hits the 30 00:01:33,996 --> 00:01:39,916 dome and on the underside of the dome makes contact with the PCB and that's 31 00:01:39,916 --> 00:01:43,216 what sends the signal to your computer. 32 00:01:44,025 --> 00:01:49,309 But this is a single, I think, kind of like a single piece of hardware for all 33 00:01:49,809 --> 00:01:55,229 of the keyboards keys, as opposed to an individual piece of hardware for each key. 34 00:01:55,859 --> 00:01:56,739 Erez: Right, right. 35 00:01:56,749 --> 00:02:00,439 You know, when I was 14, I had this early, maybe even the original 36 00:02:00,829 --> 00:02:02,979 Microsoft natural ergonomic keyboard. 37 00:02:02,979 --> 00:02:03,319 Tisha: [laughs]. 38 00:02:03,659 --> 00:02:03,809 Right. 39 00:02:03,859 --> 00:02:09,229 Erez: And I, of course, spilled something all over it and it was 40 00:02:09,259 --> 00:02:10,589 an expensive keyboard, right. 41 00:02:10,589 --> 00:02:11,659 I wanted to salvage it. 42 00:02:11,659 --> 00:02:16,739 So I ended up taking it apart and I actually kind of Jerry rigged 43 00:02:16,789 --> 00:02:23,179 like a clothesline in my room and I hung the rubber sheet to dry. 44 00:02:23,459 --> 00:02:23,499 Tisha: [laughs]. 45 00:02:23,499 --> 00:02:23,569 Right. 46 00:02:23,579 --> 00:02:26,229 Erez: And that's when I was like, "Oh, so that's, that's how it works." 47 00:02:26,239 --> 00:02:29,769 It's like, and it worked later, like I could actually dry it out and I 48 00:02:29,829 --> 00:02:33,019 got it back to working, so right. 49 00:02:33,079 --> 00:02:33,859 But okay. 50 00:02:33,859 --> 00:02:36,249 So mechanical key switches, well they're individual. 51 00:02:36,259 --> 00:02:36,519 Right. 52 00:02:36,519 --> 00:02:39,819 And they have moving parts inside, but you know, if you look at, for 53 00:02:39,819 --> 00:02:42,939 example, modern day laptops, they don't have those rubber sheets. 54 00:02:42,949 --> 00:02:43,379 Right? 55 00:02:44,909 --> 00:02:45,489 Tisha: Right. 56 00:02:45,859 --> 00:02:47,579 For the most part, they don't. 57 00:02:47,629 --> 00:02:50,629 Partially because they're, you know, there just isn't room. 58 00:02:51,011 --> 00:02:53,471 They have a different type of mechanism. 59 00:02:54,044 --> 00:02:58,244 I tend to think about it as a middle ground between rubber dome and 60 00:02:58,244 --> 00:03:04,739 mechanical key switches, because there is an individual mechanism per key. 61 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,990 Erez: So it's basically, you have like a mechanism per every key, but 62 00:03:09,030 --> 00:03:12,270 it's not, it doesn't work like that. 63 00:03:12,270 --> 00:03:16,390 It's not like a metal leaf and a spring and that kind of thing? 64 00:03:17,740 --> 00:03:18,540 Tisha: Right. 65 00:03:18,550 --> 00:03:20,550 There is not a spring. 66 00:03:20,620 --> 00:03:25,107 Again, there wouldn't really be, if you think about how flat most laptop 67 00:03:25,107 --> 00:03:30,527 keyboards are, there isn't room for a spring or very many things at all. 68 00:03:31,167 --> 00:03:31,607 Erez: Right. 69 00:03:32,397 --> 00:03:36,647 So really, mechanical key switches the way we think about them, 70 00:03:36,647 --> 00:03:39,057 they actually predate laptops. 71 00:03:39,057 --> 00:03:39,277 Right? 72 00:03:39,277 --> 00:03:42,837 I mean, we're talking about Eighties or earlier technology. 73 00:03:42,837 --> 00:03:43,247 Right? 74 00:03:43,397 --> 00:03:43,827 Tisha: Right. 75 00:03:43,867 --> 00:03:44,477 Totally. 76 00:03:44,527 --> 00:03:44,997 Yeah. 77 00:03:45,510 --> 00:03:48,870 Erez: Why, why are they still a thing, do you think? 78 00:03:48,870 --> 00:03:52,650 Like, why do people like us obsess over mechanical key switches 79 00:03:52,650 --> 00:03:57,750 where, you know, I'm not clamoring to use like an EGA monitor. 80 00:03:57,820 --> 00:03:58,420 Yay. 81 00:03:58,420 --> 00:03:59,110 You know? 82 00:04:00,430 --> 00:04:00,470 Tisha: [laughs]. 83 00:04:00,470 --> 00:04:01,680 Erez: What's, what's the appeal? 84 00:04:01,963 --> 00:04:04,003 Tisha: Boy, I think there are a lot of reasons. 85 00:04:04,043 --> 00:04:10,523 But I'm sure for most people, the biggest reason is because they feel, 86 00:04:11,023 --> 00:04:12,943 well for most people, they feel better. 87 00:04:13,273 --> 00:04:14,950 They feel different. 88 00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:20,320 They are in at least some keyboards easily replaceable. 89 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:26,047 So if you want your keyboard to feel different, you can just, in many 90 00:04:26,047 --> 00:04:30,157 types of keyboards, just pop those switches out and put new ones in. 91 00:04:30,687 --> 00:04:35,407 Or if you, [laughs] if you spill something and maybe you get liquid 92 00:04:35,407 --> 00:04:38,457 inside the switch, well, that might not be the end of the world. 93 00:04:38,547 --> 00:04:41,107 If everything else is okay, you can just put a new switch in. 94 00:04:41,307 --> 00:04:43,867 But I think mostly it's just that they feel... 95 00:04:43,887 --> 00:04:48,217 they're just so much more satisfying to type on than other types of 96 00:04:48,217 --> 00:04:52,157 keyboards, at least to the people who like [laughs] right, to the people 97 00:04:52,157 --> 00:04:55,837 who like mechanical key switches, it's because they feel more satisfying. 98 00:04:56,687 --> 00:04:57,167 Erez: Right. 99 00:04:57,257 --> 00:04:59,247 So, so you say, feel. 100 00:04:59,597 --> 00:04:59,832 Tisha: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 101 00:04:59,917 --> 00:05:02,167 Erez: Would you say they also sound different? 102 00:05:02,177 --> 00:05:03,947 Like, are they loud? 103 00:05:04,747 --> 00:05:06,257 Is that a part of the appeal? 104 00:05:06,257 --> 00:05:07,797 Like the, the loudness there? 105 00:05:08,477 --> 00:05:10,337 Tisha: Certainly for some people it is. 106 00:05:10,547 --> 00:05:16,303 There is quite a range of noise level in mechanical key switches. 107 00:05:16,653 --> 00:05:21,889 The quietest , which are specialized switches that have built in sound 108 00:05:21,919 --> 00:05:27,299 dampening, those can be almost as quiet as a normal laptop keyboard. 109 00:05:27,559 --> 00:05:31,499 Possibly a little bit quieter than something like that old original 110 00:05:31,499 --> 00:05:34,715 Microsoft Natural, which I also used. 111 00:05:34,785 --> 00:05:39,415 And if you really got [laughs] if you really got typing on it, 112 00:05:40,925 --> 00:05:42,985 you know, that thing could, could make a good amount of noise. 113 00:05:42,985 --> 00:05:43,065 [laughs]. 114 00:05:43,905 --> 00:05:44,015 Erez: Yeah. 115 00:05:44,015 --> 00:05:48,855 It would be like a plastic on plastic kind of noise running, I means, as I whack the 116 00:05:48,875 --> 00:05:52,975 keys, I would, you know, I remember long nights in IRC and whatever, it would like, 117 00:05:53,795 --> 00:05:55,655 it's a plastic on plastic type of thing. 118 00:05:56,695 --> 00:05:56,905 Right? 119 00:05:56,905 --> 00:05:57,115 Tisha: Yep. 120 00:05:57,455 --> 00:05:57,805 Totally. 121 00:05:57,815 --> 00:05:59,705 Erez: You still get that the mechanical keyboards today though, 122 00:05:59,705 --> 00:06:03,185 even if you use a relatively quiet key switch, you're still going to 123 00:06:03,185 --> 00:06:05,365 get this plastic on plastic "thwack". 124 00:06:05,702 --> 00:06:06,112 No? 125 00:06:06,612 --> 00:06:07,772 Tisha: You definitely can. 126 00:06:07,782 --> 00:06:12,092 That a lot of times will come down to how you type. 127 00:06:12,752 --> 00:06:18,222 How I type, which is pretty percussively and hitting the switches, hitting 128 00:06:18,222 --> 00:06:20,282 the keys pretty hard then, yes. 129 00:06:20,812 --> 00:06:24,782 Any keyboard is going to be noisy because I'm pounding the heck out of it. 130 00:06:25,322 --> 00:06:25,937 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 131 00:06:26,212 --> 00:06:31,112 Tisha: Maybe someone with a more [laughs] disciplined or restrained typing style 132 00:06:31,522 --> 00:06:35,132 is not going to get so much of that plastic-on-plastic because they're 133 00:06:35,372 --> 00:06:38,512 just not getting that "thwack, thwack, thwack" as they hit the keys hard. 134 00:06:38,852 --> 00:06:42,092 If you hit the key softly, you keyboard overall is probably going 135 00:06:42,092 --> 00:06:44,192 to be a little, a little quieter. 136 00:06:45,032 --> 00:06:47,902 Erez: So this is actually interesting 'cause you mentioned your own personal 137 00:06:47,902 --> 00:06:49,972 typing and I can't help, but mention... 138 00:06:50,302 --> 00:06:53,442 your words-per-minute is insane. 139 00:06:53,442 --> 00:06:53,612 Right? 140 00:06:53,662 --> 00:06:56,682 What's like your words-per-minute typing rate more or less? 141 00:06:57,102 --> 00:07:02,302 Tisha: I would say for just everyday typing, like I'm not trying super hard 142 00:07:02,302 --> 00:07:09,022 because I'm being measured , maybe in the 140 to 150 range, maybe 140. 143 00:07:09,442 --> 00:07:12,402 And I've maxed out at around 160. 144 00:07:12,822 --> 00:07:13,132 Erez: All right. 145 00:07:13,142 --> 00:07:14,802 So 140 words. 146 00:07:14,842 --> 00:07:16,192 That's words per minute? 147 00:07:16,272 --> 00:07:16,812 Tisha: Right. 148 00:07:16,912 --> 00:07:18,482 Erez: When you're not trying so hard. 149 00:07:18,612 --> 00:07:19,242 Tisha: Right. 150 00:07:19,252 --> 00:07:26,312 Erez: So, [laughs] so would you say that using a mechanical keyboard makes 151 00:07:26,312 --> 00:07:27,992 any sort of difference speed wise? 152 00:07:28,032 --> 00:07:31,632 Are you just as fast on the laptop say, or does the keyboard make 153 00:07:31,632 --> 00:07:32,902 any sort of difference for you? 154 00:07:33,902 --> 00:07:39,675 Tisha: That is a tough question to answer because there's kind of more 155 00:07:39,675 --> 00:07:41,985 than one dimension at play here. 156 00:07:42,692 --> 00:07:49,789 I have, I would, before I switched to ... well let me back up for a second and say 157 00:07:49,789 --> 00:07:52,225 that the 160 max-out was on a Moonlander. 158 00:07:52,229 --> 00:07:53,054 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 159 00:07:53,259 --> 00:07:59,315 Tisha: So we're talking about a split keyboard that I have tented that 160 00:07:59,315 --> 00:08:03,582 has the straight columns of keys. 161 00:08:04,472 --> 00:08:09,582 Those things all for me have, have made at least some difference. 162 00:08:10,092 --> 00:08:11,942 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 163 00:08:12,442 --> 00:08:13,772 Tisha: When I go back now... 164 00:08:13,822 --> 00:08:17,982 I still do use a laptop keyboard fairly regularly, but not heavily. 165 00:08:19,152 --> 00:08:24,142 And I type more slowly on it than I do on a Moonlander or an Ergodox. 166 00:08:26,102 --> 00:08:27,242 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 167 00:08:27,242 --> 00:08:27,602 Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 168 00:08:27,782 --> 00:08:28,872 Tisha: If I would... 169 00:08:28,872 --> 00:08:31,912 Erez: The funny thing is also, obviously those boards are shaped different. 170 00:08:31,912 --> 00:08:32,152 Right. 171 00:08:32,152 --> 00:08:37,112 But do you think some of that is also due to the switches, like the actual keys? 172 00:08:38,112 --> 00:08:40,052 Tisha: I do think so. 173 00:08:40,472 --> 00:08:44,572 In my case, and you know, I kind of have to qualify that, to say 174 00:08:44,572 --> 00:08:47,719 that everyone's different, everyone types differently, everyone's 175 00:08:47,719 --> 00:08:49,089 hands and fingers are different. 176 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:57,229 Because I find the deeper key depth, the longer key travel, which is something 177 00:08:57,229 --> 00:09:00,859 we'll talk about in a second , works better for me than the really short 178 00:09:01,069 --> 00:09:04,269 travel, the really flat keys on a laptop. 179 00:09:04,279 --> 00:09:10,979 There's something about, I think the, I guess the recoil action on my key that's 180 00:09:10,979 --> 00:09:13,609 deeper that is beneficial for my typing. 181 00:09:14,469 --> 00:09:14,922 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 182 00:09:14,922 --> 00:09:16,749 What key switches do you use right now? 183 00:09:17,189 --> 00:09:21,539 Tisha: In my Moonlander, I am using the Kailh Box Brown. 184 00:09:22,299 --> 00:09:22,309 Erez: Hmm. 185 00:09:23,259 --> 00:09:24,019 Tactile. 186 00:09:24,079 --> 00:09:26,899 Well, actually before we, before I start throwing around like terms... 187 00:09:26,919 --> 00:09:28,709 tactile, and you touched on key travel. 188 00:09:29,019 --> 00:09:31,369 Let's talk a little bit about these terms of arts. 189 00:09:31,389 --> 00:09:31,451 Tisha: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 190 00:09:31,451 --> 00:09:35,119 Erez: So , as you know, as people dig into key switches... 191 00:09:35,119 --> 00:09:39,139 key switches are, I think interesting because they are hard to describe. 192 00:09:39,179 --> 00:09:42,039 That's kind of why we decided to have this format rather than play 193 00:09:42,039 --> 00:09:45,829 some recordings because really they're subjective to a degree. 194 00:09:45,829 --> 00:09:46,179 Right? 195 00:09:46,889 --> 00:09:49,709 And as you dig into it, you're going to find a whole bunch 196 00:09:49,709 --> 00:09:51,979 of terms being thrown around. 197 00:09:51,999 --> 00:09:56,659 Obviously there's the more informal, like a "thock" versus a "thwack" and 198 00:09:56,659 --> 00:10:01,249 people really trying to capture the acoustics there, but also more, you 199 00:10:01,249 --> 00:10:03,849 know, there's a bunch of terms that you will find on the spec sheets. 200 00:10:03,849 --> 00:10:07,049 Like for example, yeah, what's key travel or pre-travel, 201 00:10:07,059 --> 00:10:08,399 what are those, for example? 202 00:10:09,689 --> 00:10:14,519 Tisha: Well, key travel is the total distance that you can press 203 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,009 the key before it physically stops. 204 00:10:17,349 --> 00:10:20,959 And that physical stop point is the bottom out, which is another 205 00:10:21,119 --> 00:10:23,459 term that you'll see if you... 206 00:10:23,639 --> 00:10:28,369 And this is, this is the way I type, which is part of that percussive typing style. 207 00:10:28,719 --> 00:10:33,929 If you press your keys all the way down until they stop because they've 208 00:10:34,229 --> 00:10:36,259 hit bottom, that's bottoming out. 209 00:10:36,539 --> 00:10:41,175 And that means your, that's the maximum, that's the total key travel 210 00:10:41,185 --> 00:10:46,829 distance is from the, the neutral, "not-touching-it" position [laughs] 211 00:10:47,049 --> 00:10:48,369 to pressing it all the way down. 212 00:10:49,172 --> 00:10:56,905 And most let's say standard "normal key switches", all of the switches 213 00:10:56,905 --> 00:11:00,835 that we carry for our keyboards, the total key travel distance 214 00:11:00,845 --> 00:11:03,205 tends to be two around millimeters. 215 00:11:03,545 --> 00:11:04,259 Erez: Mm-hmm [ affirmative]. 216 00:11:04,509 --> 00:11:09,659 And then somewhere along there, like it's not going to actuate at the very bottom. 217 00:11:09,659 --> 00:11:09,859 Right. 218 00:11:09,859 --> 00:11:12,749 I don't have to like do the whole two millimeters to get 219 00:11:12,819 --> 00:11:14,209 something to show on my screen? 220 00:11:14,609 --> 00:11:14,869 Tisha: Right. 221 00:11:15,269 --> 00:11:15,979 Oh, I'm sorry. 222 00:11:15,989 --> 00:11:17,549 Four millimeters for the... 223 00:11:17,549 --> 00:11:17,929 Erez: Four millimeters? 224 00:11:18,269 --> 00:11:18,599 Tisha: Right. 225 00:11:18,639 --> 00:11:18,909 Yup. 226 00:11:18,959 --> 00:11:19,339 Erez: Okay. 227 00:11:20,099 --> 00:11:24,569 So then, so I don't have to go all the way down to get it to actuate. 228 00:11:24,569 --> 00:11:24,779 Tisha: Right. 229 00:11:25,399 --> 00:11:28,709 Erez: So somewhere along there is what we call the actuation point. 230 00:11:28,729 --> 00:11:29,169 Right? 231 00:11:29,289 --> 00:11:29,999 Tisha: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 232 00:11:30,859 --> 00:11:37,929 And here is another difference between a mechanical key switch and other types 233 00:11:37,989 --> 00:11:43,529 of keyboard mechanisms with both rubber domes and laptop keyboards, you do have to 234 00:11:43,529 --> 00:11:49,519 push the key all the way down to actuate it because the circuit isn't closed until 235 00:11:49,519 --> 00:11:51,059 the key is pressed all the way down. 236 00:11:51,809 --> 00:11:52,109 Erez: Right. 237 00:11:52,339 --> 00:11:57,275 Tisha: With a mechanical key switch, the actuation point isn't at the very bottom. 238 00:11:57,759 --> 00:12:04,039 Where it is depends on the switch, on the type of switch and the distance 239 00:12:04,059 --> 00:12:08,359 between, I guess the, the downward distance you have to press the key 240 00:12:08,409 --> 00:12:10,709 before it actuates is the pre-travel. 241 00:12:11,709 --> 00:12:12,039 Erez: Okay. 242 00:12:12,039 --> 00:12:12,909 So however... 243 00:12:13,099 --> 00:12:16,999 Let's say we have four millimeters, whatever, however much it is. 244 00:12:17,449 --> 00:12:22,329 And I kind of, I'm being very gentle with it and I go very, very slowly 245 00:12:22,329 --> 00:12:25,479 and I pass like one millimeter and then I get the letter A on my screen. 246 00:12:25,739 --> 00:12:27,829 So that was like a one millimeter pre-travel. 247 00:12:28,119 --> 00:12:28,619 Tisha: Right. 248 00:12:29,169 --> 00:12:29,619 Erez: Okay. 249 00:12:30,709 --> 00:12:35,409 I guess maybe one thing worth, worth noting is that often when you look at 250 00:12:35,409 --> 00:12:38,959 spec sheets, you have like a little plus minus sign next to it, right? 251 00:12:39,159 --> 00:12:40,799 Tisha: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 252 00:12:40,955 --> 00:12:41,215 Yeah. 253 00:12:41,215 --> 00:12:45,085 These are these are mechanical things with a lot of moving parts. 254 00:12:45,105 --> 00:12:48,745 And so they're not 100% identical. 255 00:12:48,745 --> 00:12:50,555 There are tiny variances. 256 00:12:51,205 --> 00:12:55,622 So yeah, you're, there's going to be, there's going to be small 257 00:12:55,622 --> 00:12:57,352 differences switch to switch. 258 00:12:57,382 --> 00:13:01,329 And they should be, you know, if you've got a keyboard full of the 259 00:13:01,329 --> 00:13:05,849 same type of switch and you're just typing along normally, these are not 260 00:13:05,849 --> 00:13:07,429 differences that you're going to notice. 261 00:13:07,789 --> 00:13:08,364 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 262 00:13:08,519 --> 00:13:13,059 Tisha: But if you put them in some sort of tester, or [laughs] if you 263 00:13:13,069 --> 00:13:17,079 very meticulously, you know, press your switches extremely slow and pay a lot 264 00:13:17,079 --> 00:13:19,039 of attention, then you might notice. 265 00:13:19,499 --> 00:13:19,849 Erez: Right. 266 00:13:20,049 --> 00:13:20,419 Right. 267 00:13:21,509 --> 00:13:22,479 So, okay. 268 00:13:22,479 --> 00:13:23,169 That makes sense. 269 00:13:23,179 --> 00:13:24,659 So that's, that's our travel. 270 00:13:24,659 --> 00:13:28,919 And then another term that people come across, I think is actuation force. 271 00:13:29,009 --> 00:13:29,519 Right? 272 00:13:29,669 --> 00:13:30,069 Tisha: Right. 273 00:13:30,909 --> 00:13:37,732 I did want to mention regarding pre-travel that there are kind of two big categories 274 00:13:38,242 --> 00:13:43,392 of switches that, and again, I'm going to use the word "normal" or "standard". 275 00:13:43,842 --> 00:13:45,652 Maybe "default" is a better word. 276 00:13:46,772 --> 00:13:54,039 Most key switches have an actuation point about halfway down, I guess. 277 00:13:54,269 --> 00:13:59,529 So their pre-travel distance tends to be about half of their total travel distance. 278 00:14:00,609 --> 00:14:06,439 If your switch's total key travel is about four millimeters, then 279 00:14:06,439 --> 00:14:11,069 its actuation point is going to be about two millimeters down usually. 280 00:14:12,019 --> 00:14:16,064 But there are speed switches, and we carry a few of these and there are a whole 281 00:14:16,064 --> 00:14:21,895 lot more out there with a high actuation point, meaning that their pre-travel 282 00:14:21,925 --> 00:14:27,015 tends to be more like, and, and this is something you may want to look at in 283 00:14:27,015 --> 00:14:35,918 the switches spec, the pre-travel is more like between 1 and 1.5 millimeters. 284 00:14:37,148 --> 00:14:37,848 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 285 00:14:38,298 --> 00:14:41,418 So like almost half, a half as much. 286 00:14:41,708 --> 00:14:42,208 Tisha: Right. 287 00:14:43,178 --> 00:14:46,438 Erez: And actually, let me pull up, I want to pull up a spec sheet real quick 288 00:14:46,438 --> 00:14:48,048 here, because this is interesting. 289 00:14:48,048 --> 00:14:53,108 So let me just, if I go to our own key switches page, even. 290 00:14:54,548 --> 00:14:58,018 So for example, okay. 291 00:14:58,018 --> 00:14:58,238 Yeah. 292 00:14:58,238 --> 00:15:01,898 So I'm looking at the Cherry MX Brown here, which is the first switch on 293 00:15:01,898 --> 00:15:07,145 our page, and I see your pre-travel of two millimeters, plus-minus 0.6. 294 00:15:07,145 --> 00:15:10,665 So the plus-minus there, the, the margin is actually pretty generous. 295 00:15:10,795 --> 00:15:11,685 Tisha: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 296 00:15:11,835 --> 00:15:15,885 Erez: And then, okay, so here is a speed switch, the Kailh bronze, for example. 297 00:15:16,255 --> 00:15:22,060 So that's, pre-travel 1.4 mil with plus-minus 0.3. 298 00:15:23,295 --> 00:15:24,665 So it's almost half as much. 299 00:15:24,665 --> 00:15:26,305 So would these actually... 300 00:15:26,305 --> 00:15:27,935 So they're called speed switches. 301 00:15:28,295 --> 00:15:31,115 Will they actually make me faster? 302 00:15:32,115 --> 00:15:37,705 Tisha: I think [laughs] that that's a matter of opinion and maybe of perception. 303 00:15:39,365 --> 00:15:44,935 I think that there are some people who do, who do feel that 304 00:15:44,935 --> 00:15:46,315 they make them a little faster. 305 00:15:46,565 --> 00:15:50,335 That may be when gaming, they give them a little bit of a faster response time. 306 00:15:51,825 --> 00:15:52,035 Erez: Right. 307 00:15:52,605 --> 00:15:56,678 Tisha: For me, they don't make me feel like I'm typing faster or that my 308 00:15:57,328 --> 00:16:01,758 typing is somehow faster, but, you know, again, there's this really is kind of 309 00:16:01,758 --> 00:16:07,198 a subject-, even, [laughs] even though it has an objective measure, the effect 310 00:16:07,218 --> 00:16:09,608 can, I think be a little subjective. 311 00:16:10,248 --> 00:16:10,508 Erez: Right. 312 00:16:10,508 --> 00:16:13,068 Because it's still a human being using the thing. 313 00:16:13,078 --> 00:16:13,368 Right. 314 00:16:13,478 --> 00:16:13,668 So... 315 00:16:13,668 --> 00:16:14,188 Tisha: Right. 316 00:16:14,668 --> 00:16:16,218 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 317 00:16:16,218 --> 00:16:16,448 Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 318 00:16:16,668 --> 00:16:16,888 Okay. 319 00:16:16,888 --> 00:16:17,638 Tisha: And, yeah. 320 00:16:17,638 --> 00:16:22,198 And there's a lot going on aside from just what's going on in the keyboard 321 00:16:22,478 --> 00:16:27,808 [laughs] between you pressing a key and your computer doing something. 322 00:16:28,808 --> 00:16:29,438 So... 323 00:16:30,318 --> 00:16:30,348 Erez: Okay. 324 00:16:30,638 --> 00:16:31,808 So whatever speed... 325 00:16:31,878 --> 00:16:33,668 So yeah, there's a bunch there, right. 326 00:16:33,738 --> 00:16:38,108 I mean, there, there's the whole like fine motor skills aspect of it, right, 327 00:16:38,128 --> 00:16:40,948 of those keys are touchier in a sense. 328 00:16:41,118 --> 00:16:41,518 Tisha: Right. 329 00:16:41,618 --> 00:16:44,868 Erez: More, are they, would you say they're more prone to like accidental 330 00:16:44,868 --> 00:16:47,108 activation and like getting stuff...? 331 00:16:47,818 --> 00:16:52,795 Tisha: I think they can be, especially if you ... like if you rest your hands 332 00:16:52,795 --> 00:16:55,145 on your keyboard when you're not typing and you're just thinking, and your 333 00:16:55,145 --> 00:16:58,995 fingers are just kinda there, maybe you tap or wiggle your fingers a little bit. 334 00:17:00,005 --> 00:17:00,315 Yeah. 335 00:17:00,315 --> 00:17:03,432 Some of them you could end up with, with some accidental key 336 00:17:03,432 --> 00:17:05,622 presses more, more easily, I think. 337 00:17:05,632 --> 00:17:11,782 Or if you type such that you sometimes bump another key with your finger, 338 00:17:12,022 --> 00:17:16,912 sort of [laughs] like on the way to a different key, you bump one between 339 00:17:16,912 --> 00:17:18,212 your home row and the other key. 340 00:17:19,292 --> 00:17:19,712 You might. 341 00:17:19,722 --> 00:17:23,835 That is another thing that's very dependent on your own 342 00:17:23,845 --> 00:17:27,425 typing style and the way you move your fingers and so forth. 343 00:17:27,815 --> 00:17:28,215 Erez: Right. 344 00:17:28,395 --> 00:17:28,825 Right. 345 00:17:29,315 --> 00:17:29,785 Okay. 346 00:17:30,695 --> 00:17:34,865 So now looking at this page I just pulled up, our own key switches page, for every 347 00:17:34,865 --> 00:17:37,445 switch we note also actuation force. 348 00:17:37,445 --> 00:17:39,021 Do you want to talk about that a little bit? 349 00:17:39,641 --> 00:17:40,241 Tisha: Sure. 350 00:17:40,251 --> 00:17:46,525 And that really is just the amount of force required to make the switch actuate. 351 00:17:47,595 --> 00:17:48,515 Erez: As in, so... 352 00:17:49,085 --> 00:17:52,405 so there's a fine point here as in actually, not necessarily bottom out. 353 00:17:52,475 --> 00:17:56,155 It's however much force I need to push down with, just to 354 00:17:56,155 --> 00:17:57,195 get a character on the screen. 355 00:17:57,225 --> 00:18:00,475 It's possible that getting the switch all the way down would 356 00:18:00,495 --> 00:18:02,085 require more force than that? 357 00:18:02,925 --> 00:18:03,475 Tisha: Sure. 358 00:18:03,475 --> 00:18:08,088 That is possible just depending on various characteristics of the switch. 359 00:18:08,178 --> 00:18:13,168 For some of them the actuation force and the, I guess "bottom-out force" 360 00:18:13,198 --> 00:18:15,198 is going to be pretty much the same. 361 00:18:16,228 --> 00:18:17,388 But yeah, but not all of them. 362 00:18:17,808 --> 00:18:18,168 Erez: Mm-hmm 363 00:18:18,531 --> 00:18:25,411 Tisha: And it's, there, there are a lot of numbers [laughs] and honestly, 364 00:18:25,541 --> 00:18:32,571 I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the actual number because, you 365 00:18:32,571 --> 00:18:37,821 know, what does 45 grams of force mean for my hands and fingers? 366 00:18:38,131 --> 00:18:38,651 I don't know. 367 00:18:38,741 --> 00:18:38,811 [laughs]. 368 00:18:40,401 --> 00:18:46,221 But they're useful, you know, again, to me, they're much more useful in relative 369 00:18:46,221 --> 00:18:47,951 terms, kind of compared to each other. 370 00:18:47,951 --> 00:18:48,231 Okay. 371 00:18:48,231 --> 00:18:51,091 So there are a bunch of switches that I see that are in the 372 00:18:51,091 --> 00:18:54,325 maybe 40 to 50 grams range. 373 00:18:54,365 --> 00:18:58,898 And then you have, let's say, you know, 45 to 50, and then you have lighter 374 00:18:58,898 --> 00:19:02,778 ones that are maybe more like 40 and you have heavier ones that are 50 and above. 375 00:19:03,778 --> 00:19:07,848 That is the, the more useful thing to pay attention to, for me. 376 00:19:08,358 --> 00:19:08,718 Erez: Right. 377 00:19:08,718 --> 00:19:13,248 So how they sit in relation to each other, like one that's 45 378 00:19:13,248 --> 00:19:14,848 versus one that's I dunno, 80. 379 00:19:14,918 --> 00:19:18,948 So the 45 is definitely going to be noticeably easier to press. 380 00:19:19,318 --> 00:19:19,898 Tisha: Right. 381 00:19:20,298 --> 00:19:21,440 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 382 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:21,918 All right. 383 00:19:22,418 --> 00:19:28,468 So then another, I guess three key terms is like linear, tactile and clicky. 384 00:19:28,518 --> 00:19:30,698 Clicky kind of makes sense. 385 00:19:30,698 --> 00:19:30,848 Right? 386 00:19:30,848 --> 00:19:34,218 Clicky switches are switches that you press down and they click? 387 00:19:34,548 --> 00:19:34,968 Tisha: Right. 388 00:19:35,948 --> 00:19:36,348 Erez: Okay. 389 00:19:36,378 --> 00:19:40,418 And then linear and tactile, those are maybe a little bit less obvious. 390 00:19:41,868 --> 00:19:42,238 Tisha: Right? 391 00:19:42,258 --> 00:19:47,848 Well, clicky switches, clicky and tactile have a lot in common. 392 00:19:48,428 --> 00:19:48,438 Erez: Hmm. 393 00:19:48,995 --> 00:19:51,205 Tisha: They both provide tactile feedback. 394 00:19:51,265 --> 00:19:57,842 And what that means is that near, at or near [laughs] the point that 395 00:19:57,842 --> 00:20:03,092 the switch actuates, th- there's a little bump that of extra resistance. 396 00:20:03,522 --> 00:20:09,422 So as you're pushing the switch down, you kind of feel an increase in resistance. 397 00:20:09,625 --> 00:20:15,805 And then it, if you keep pushing through that, then the resistance becomes lighter 398 00:20:15,915 --> 00:20:18,035 because you've gone past the tactile bump. 399 00:20:19,335 --> 00:20:22,645 It's kind of like a little hill as you're pressing the switch down, 400 00:20:22,925 --> 00:20:24,989 you're sort of climbing the hill. 401 00:20:25,182 --> 00:20:30,595 And then after you pass or press through the tactile bump, you've crested the hill 402 00:20:30,595 --> 00:20:31,815 and now you're back on your way down. 403 00:20:32,785 --> 00:20:35,035 Erez: How noticeable is that in practice? 404 00:20:35,035 --> 00:20:38,045 Like when you were going 160 words per minute, can you, you 405 00:20:38,045 --> 00:20:40,015 know, that's a ton of key presses. 406 00:20:40,015 --> 00:20:41,015 Can you feel it? 407 00:20:42,015 --> 00:20:44,739 Tisha: I would say a little bit. 408 00:20:44,769 --> 00:20:49,449 And again, it depends on the switch because some of them have a very light, 409 00:20:49,719 --> 00:20:57,202 gentle, tactile bump, and some of them have quite a firm sharp bump or their 410 00:20:57,202 --> 00:21:00,412 bump is, I guess, you know, bigger... 411 00:21:00,442 --> 00:21:04,192 kind of the increased resistance. 412 00:21:04,742 --> 00:21:07,102 I don't know really how to say this. 413 00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:11,210 The resistance is increased through more of the downward 414 00:21:11,220 --> 00:21:12,980 distance, if that makes sense. 415 00:21:13,220 --> 00:21:18,970 Some of them, you have a small, maybe sharp tactile bump where you feel a 416 00:21:18,970 --> 00:21:21,073 quick ... a quick increase in resistance. 417 00:21:21,103 --> 00:21:21,778 And some of them is... 418 00:21:21,778 --> 00:21:23,313 Erez: Like a, like a little spike. 419 00:21:23,313 --> 00:21:28,853 Like a hard spike, but if we're looking at an actuation graph, a hard spike, but a 420 00:21:28,863 --> 00:21:31,783 short one, is that what you're getting at? 421 00:21:31,853 --> 00:21:32,143 Tisha: Right. 422 00:21:32,513 --> 00:21:32,953 Yeah. 423 00:21:33,263 --> 00:21:37,797 And some of them it's longer, the increase in resistance would be more 424 00:21:37,797 --> 00:21:40,417 of kind of a rounded bump shape. 425 00:21:40,797 --> 00:21:41,047 Erez: Yeah. 426 00:21:41,047 --> 00:21:44,087 More of a rounded graph rather than like a sharp spike. 427 00:21:44,397 --> 00:21:45,017 Tisha: Right. 428 00:21:46,037 --> 00:21:54,551 So both tactile and clicky switches have that increased ... That resistance 429 00:21:54,551 --> 00:21:59,891 bump that is there to tell your fingers when the switch is actuating. 430 00:22:00,731 --> 00:22:01,071 Erez: Right. 431 00:22:01,071 --> 00:22:02,681 Tisha: Clicky switches have... 432 00:22:02,681 --> 00:22:02,701 Erez: That's, that's... 433 00:22:02,711 --> 00:22:03,791 Tisha: Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. 434 00:22:04,031 --> 00:22:04,761 Erez: No, sorry. 435 00:22:04,761 --> 00:22:06,001 Just that one is actually interesting. 436 00:22:06,061 --> 00:22:10,404 'Cause you say, "tell your fingers when the switch is actuating", but I guess 437 00:22:10,404 --> 00:22:12,199 it's almost when the switch is actuating. 438 00:22:12,474 --> 00:22:12,704 Right? 439 00:22:12,734 --> 00:22:15,294 'Cause it's not actually at the same point, is it? 440 00:22:16,224 --> 00:22:17,004 Tisha: Right. 441 00:22:18,284 --> 00:22:22,521 And again, this is generally only something that most people will be able 442 00:22:22,531 --> 00:22:28,451 to detect if they're very carefully and slowly pressing a switch to see 443 00:22:28,451 --> 00:22:30,411 exactly when everything happens. 444 00:22:30,871 --> 00:22:37,064 Most standard switches, the peak of the tactile bump and the actuation 445 00:22:37,084 --> 00:22:39,284 come at basically the same time. 446 00:22:39,294 --> 00:22:40,984 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 447 00:22:42,274 --> 00:22:46,964 Tisha: With a speed switch, the ones with the high actuation point, 448 00:22:46,974 --> 00:22:48,824 the short pre-travel distance... 449 00:22:49,824 --> 00:22:56,231 the peak of the tactile bump comes just after the switch actuates. 450 00:22:56,261 --> 00:23:01,191 Because the actuation point is so high, it comes so soon, it comes 451 00:23:01,221 --> 00:23:03,691 just before the tactile bump. 452 00:23:04,841 --> 00:23:08,571 Erez: So if I'm being like, if I have a tactile speed switch and I'm being, 453 00:23:08,701 --> 00:23:13,721 featherlight when I'm typing, I could theoretically get stuff on my screen 454 00:23:13,721 --> 00:23:16,434 without getting the tactile bumps even? 455 00:23:17,894 --> 00:23:18,544 Tisha: Right. 456 00:23:18,644 --> 00:23:19,584 Yes. 457 00:23:19,944 --> 00:23:21,234 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 458 00:23:21,944 --> 00:23:22,384 Interesting. 459 00:23:23,764 --> 00:23:26,144 Tisha: I, for me, that would be difficult. 460 00:23:27,104 --> 00:23:27,144 [laughs]. 461 00:23:27,374 --> 00:23:27,504 Erez: Right. 462 00:23:28,354 --> 00:23:31,334 Tisha: But, you know, again, everyone, everyone types differently. 463 00:23:31,334 --> 00:23:31,814 So, sure. 464 00:23:31,814 --> 00:23:31,934 Yeah. 465 00:23:32,054 --> 00:23:35,154 Erez: I think for me, I, I type in a linear switch, which I 466 00:23:35,154 --> 00:23:36,934 guess we're going to get to now. 467 00:23:38,254 --> 00:23:38,654 Tisha: Right. 468 00:23:38,654 --> 00:23:38,944 Yeah. 469 00:23:39,064 --> 00:23:44,304 Just quickly the, the clicky switches, the main difference between clicky 470 00:23:44,494 --> 00:23:49,467 and tactile is that clicky switches have an, an extra thing in the switch 471 00:23:49,527 --> 00:23:50,907 literally that makes them click. 472 00:23:51,007 --> 00:23:51,047 [laughs]. 473 00:23:51,577 --> 00:23:52,637 Erez: So that's an extra thing. 474 00:23:53,217 --> 00:23:56,477 It's not like a part of the switch that's differently designed. 475 00:23:56,477 --> 00:23:59,247 It's actually like a little clicker thing? 476 00:23:59,954 --> 00:24:00,484 Tisha: Right. 477 00:24:00,764 --> 00:24:01,244 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 478 00:24:01,404 --> 00:24:06,054 Tisha: And you know, I don't know a lot about the specific types. 479 00:24:06,084 --> 00:24:10,014 There are some different types of click mechanisms. 480 00:24:10,974 --> 00:24:11,014 [laughs]. 481 00:24:11,174 --> 00:24:15,457 But yeah, there's just, there's an extra little, extra little thing in there. 482 00:24:15,507 --> 00:24:18,357 A click bar is a common one. 483 00:24:18,423 --> 00:24:21,590 Yeah, so it makes, it just makes an extra little bit of noise. 484 00:24:22,340 --> 00:24:22,380 [laughs]. 485 00:24:23,090 --> 00:24:24,280 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 486 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:24,310 Cool. 487 00:24:24,877 --> 00:24:29,437 Tisha: And so linear switches don't have the click and they 488 00:24:29,437 --> 00:24:30,887 don't have the tactile bump. 489 00:24:31,377 --> 00:24:34,017 They feel smooth. 490 00:24:34,107 --> 00:24:38,687 And the resistance is the same throughout their whole travel distance. 491 00:24:38,927 --> 00:24:42,297 So you press switch down, it feels the same until you hit bottom. 492 00:24:43,387 --> 00:24:43,837 Erez: All right. 493 00:24:44,757 --> 00:24:45,687 That's straightforward. 494 00:24:45,997 --> 00:24:46,377 Tisha: Yeah. 495 00:24:47,057 --> 00:24:50,697 Erez: So then if I'm new to mechanical keywords and I'm just trying to kind 496 00:24:50,697 --> 00:24:53,707 of narrow the field a little bit, because there is such an overwhelming 497 00:24:54,657 --> 00:24:57,737 number of switches in each of these categories and I'm trying to decide. 498 00:24:57,737 --> 00:24:57,957 Okay. 499 00:24:57,957 --> 00:24:58,827 Should I go linear? 500 00:24:58,827 --> 00:24:59,597 Should I go tactile? 501 00:24:59,597 --> 00:25:00,227 Should I go clicky? 502 00:25:00,227 --> 00:25:01,457 I'm trying to narrow the field. 503 00:25:02,497 --> 00:25:06,137 I guess, I guess one thing I always tell people is clicky is only if 504 00:25:06,137 --> 00:25:08,172 you're working by yourself, right? 505 00:25:08,327 --> 00:25:14,477 Like office mates, spouses, even some pets, not big fans of clicky switches. 506 00:25:14,477 --> 00:25:14,867 Right? 507 00:25:15,047 --> 00:25:15,727 Tisha: Right. 508 00:25:16,157 --> 00:25:19,957 Erez: Are there any kind of like quick rules of thumb that you could offer 509 00:25:19,967 --> 00:25:22,137 for people looking to narrow the field? 510 00:25:22,137 --> 00:25:24,987 Oh, If you're like this then maybe look at linear, if you're like that, maybe 511 00:25:24,987 --> 00:25:26,747 look at tactile and stuff like that? 512 00:25:27,747 --> 00:25:28,517 Tisha: Right. 513 00:25:28,607 --> 00:25:34,200 So I'd say if you want something very light feeling, if you type with a light 514 00:25:34,210 --> 00:25:40,599 touch already, or if you just want a key that's really easy to press, [laughs] 515 00:25:40,779 --> 00:25:43,379 you may like a linear switch better. 516 00:25:43,499 --> 00:25:46,559 So you don't have that increased resistance of the tactile bump. 517 00:25:47,559 --> 00:25:47,829 Erez: Right. 518 00:25:47,919 --> 00:25:49,769 That's, I sometimes recommend that... 519 00:25:49,769 --> 00:25:53,719 sometimes we get people with, who already have RSI or arthritis 520 00:25:53,719 --> 00:25:54,789 or conditions like that. 521 00:25:54,789 --> 00:25:57,539 And for them, I tend to also recommend linear I guess. 522 00:25:57,539 --> 00:25:57,889 Yeah. 523 00:25:58,219 --> 00:25:58,559 Tisha: Right. 524 00:25:58,599 --> 00:26:00,279 Erez: Maybe specifically a speed switch even. 525 00:26:00,659 --> 00:26:01,109 Tisha: Sure. 526 00:26:02,802 --> 00:26:06,555 , I think is can be a good, a good first switch. 527 00:26:07,055 --> 00:26:12,575 You know, you've got a nice, as long as, [laughs] as long as you're working in 528 00:26:12,575 --> 00:26:15,405 an environment or as long as you'll be using your keyboard in an environment 529 00:26:15,405 --> 00:26:19,935 where some noise is okay, they're not as loud as a clicky switch, but 530 00:26:20,815 --> 00:26:22,615 they're not particularly quiet either. 531 00:26:22,615 --> 00:26:23,685 You can hear the typing. 532 00:26:24,845 --> 00:26:25,035 Erez: Right. 533 00:26:25,245 --> 00:26:32,885 Tisha: So if that's okay, and if you want something that "feels like a 534 00:26:32,885 --> 00:26:38,345 mechanical keyboard", then a tactile switch is a nice ... is a nice option. 535 00:26:38,345 --> 00:26:42,085 You get some some tactile feedback as you're typing. 536 00:26:43,085 --> 00:26:43,495 Erez: Right. 537 00:26:43,555 --> 00:26:48,825 So ins- instead of like trying to let say like most people will, if you come from 538 00:26:48,825 --> 00:26:55,065 a laptop keyboard, so instead of going linear that, you know, maybe is at least 539 00:26:55,065 --> 00:27:00,225 nominally closer to a laptop experience, you would say, let's actually lean into 540 00:27:00,225 --> 00:27:06,305 the mechanical aspect here and go with tactile and kind of embrace that, that 541 00:27:06,325 --> 00:27:09,025 well more tactile feeling basically. 542 00:27:09,315 --> 00:27:09,835 Tisha: Right. 543 00:27:10,075 --> 00:27:10,515 Right. 544 00:27:10,815 --> 00:27:19,065 And if you're really old, like me [laughs] and typed on you know, typewriters, 545 00:27:19,075 --> 00:27:23,805 the ultimate mechanical typing experience , so maybe not so much your 546 00:27:23,805 --> 00:27:29,765 manual typewriters, but if you remember electric typewriters, if you remember 547 00:27:29,845 --> 00:27:35,065 typing on an IBM Selectric or something like that, where you felt when that, 548 00:27:35,095 --> 00:27:39,685 you know, depending on when it was, when that daisy wheel or when that ball hit 549 00:27:39,725 --> 00:27:42,805 the paper, you felt that in the keys. 550 00:27:44,055 --> 00:27:44,365 Erez: Right. 551 00:27:44,365 --> 00:27:47,605 Tisha: A tactile switch, you know, it's, it's going to be different. 552 00:27:47,625 --> 00:27:50,815 Obviously you're not talking about a metal ball and a piece of paper, 553 00:27:51,085 --> 00:27:56,929 but a tactile or a clicky switch does give you a feeling, you know, 554 00:27:56,929 --> 00:28:02,049 it provides tactile feedback when the switch actuates basically. 555 00:28:02,169 --> 00:28:03,929 When the letter shows up on your screen [laughs]. 556 00:28:04,129 --> 00:28:04,489 Erez: Right. 557 00:28:04,489 --> 00:28:07,279 It kind of makes point of, I'm a mechanical thing. 558 00:28:07,489 --> 00:28:08,309 I mean, it's... 559 00:28:08,309 --> 00:28:08,683 Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 560 00:28:08,869 --> 00:28:09,109 Tisha: Right. 561 00:28:09,319 --> 00:28:10,359 Something has happened. 562 00:28:10,739 --> 00:28:11,129 Erez: Right. 563 00:28:11,369 --> 00:28:13,649 Tisha: And I'm telling your fingers that something has happened. 564 00:28:14,049 --> 00:28:17,569 Erez: That's actually an interesting point about speed and typing rate that 565 00:28:17,569 --> 00:28:21,099 you're just making now, because really when you type on something that's very 566 00:28:21,099 --> 00:28:25,919 flat, then your primary feedback of, "Oh, something happened", is visual. 567 00:28:26,189 --> 00:28:29,559 I wonder if this has something to do with processing speeds, mentally, right, 568 00:28:29,569 --> 00:28:33,399 versus "I can really feel in my fingers that something has happened", and I 569 00:28:33,399 --> 00:28:38,519 can move on to the next thing versus a hand- eye operation of, "Oh, a character 570 00:28:38,539 --> 00:28:42,599 has appeared, I'll move on to the next one", which obviously happens faster. 571 00:28:42,599 --> 00:28:42,899 Right? 572 00:28:42,929 --> 00:28:46,339 But I just, you know, just kind of made me wonder. 573 00:28:46,479 --> 00:28:50,119 I wonder if, you know, if the fact that so much of the feedback is tactile 574 00:28:50,119 --> 00:28:54,389 with mechanical keyboards, if that contributes to the speeds, because 575 00:28:54,819 --> 00:28:57,839 you h- don't have as much mental processing to do, it's not like, Oh, I 576 00:28:57,849 --> 00:28:59,109 see something that I'm going to type. 577 00:28:59,109 --> 00:29:00,299 It's just like, I feel. 578 00:29:01,459 --> 00:29:01,869 Tisha: Right. 579 00:29:01,869 --> 00:29:02,279 Yeah. 580 00:29:02,429 --> 00:29:05,329 That's, I hadn't thought about that either, but that's a good point. 581 00:29:05,359 --> 00:29:10,099 And it brings me back again to being [laughs] old and learning 582 00:29:10,099 --> 00:29:12,809 to type on a typewriter in school. 583 00:29:13,429 --> 00:29:18,549 And if you learned touch typing, you don't look at the paper or, or the computer, 584 00:29:18,549 --> 00:29:22,039 if you're younger than me and learned to type on a computer, you don't look at your 585 00:29:22,049 --> 00:29:24,249 output, you look at what you're typing. 586 00:29:24,629 --> 00:29:27,859 Don't look at the keyboard, don't look at the paper or the screen. 587 00:29:28,539 --> 00:29:30,603 So you, you learn... 588 00:29:30,836 --> 00:29:32,346 well, touch typing. 589 00:29:32,346 --> 00:29:33,836 You learn to type by feel- 590 00:29:34,096 --> 00:29:34,526 Erez: Right. 591 00:29:34,546 --> 00:29:36,106 ... Tisha: not by seeing what's going on. 592 00:29:36,576 --> 00:29:37,006 Erez: Right. 593 00:29:37,006 --> 00:29:39,976 You look at the paper you're transcribing or whatever- 594 00:29:40,026 --> 00:29:40,536 Tisha: Right. 595 00:29:40,596 --> 00:29:41,816 ... Erez: not your output. 596 00:29:41,976 --> 00:29:42,656 Makes sense. 597 00:29:43,826 --> 00:29:44,296 Okay. 598 00:29:44,756 --> 00:29:51,076 So, so, you know, we kind of looked at, at the olden days and typewriters and stuff. 599 00:29:51,076 --> 00:29:51,093 Tisha: [laughs]. 600 00:29:51,093 --> 00:29:51,109 Right. 601 00:29:51,126 --> 00:29:55,796 Erez: Now we live in the future and a big part of the future is it's very shiny. 602 00:29:55,846 --> 00:29:58,646 There is RGB, there is lights everywhere, right. 603 00:29:58,646 --> 00:29:58,651 Tisha: Right. 604 00:29:58,656 --> 00:29:59,876 Erez: Stuff lights up now. 605 00:29:59,916 --> 00:30:01,246 Typewriters didn't use to do that. 606 00:30:01,246 --> 00:30:02,226 I don't think they did. 607 00:30:02,226 --> 00:30:02,556 Right? 608 00:30:02,856 --> 00:30:03,836 Tisha: None of the ones I used. 609 00:30:03,836 --> 00:30:03,876 Erez: [laughs]. 610 00:30:05,416 --> 00:30:09,546 So I guess a common misconception that some people have ... you 611 00:30:09,546 --> 00:30:10,526 know, keyboards light up. 612 00:30:10,526 --> 00:30:10,766 Right? 613 00:30:10,816 --> 00:30:12,886 And we know keywords have key switches in them. 614 00:30:12,886 --> 00:30:15,376 And some people you know, they talk to me and they think, 615 00:30:15,376 --> 00:30:17,246 Oh, the key switch lights up. 616 00:30:17,246 --> 00:30:17,436 Right. 617 00:30:17,436 --> 00:30:21,276 If I, some of the key switches on our website, say RGB, red, green, blue. 618 00:30:21,276 --> 00:30:21,606 Right. 619 00:30:21,796 --> 00:30:24,156 So people think, "Oh, if I buy this key switch and I'm going to 620 00:30:24,176 --> 00:30:28,166 stick it in the board it will start shining, like it has a light inside." 621 00:30:28,596 --> 00:30:30,766 But that's not actually how it works. 622 00:30:30,766 --> 00:30:31,126 Right? 623 00:30:31,876 --> 00:30:32,236 Tisha: Right. 624 00:30:32,246 --> 00:30:35,686 That's not how it works with our keyboards anyway. 625 00:30:35,726 --> 00:30:41,806 There are some switches out there in the world that have LEDs in them. 626 00:30:42,213 --> 00:30:47,669 But A, I don't know, I basically don't know anything about those switches 627 00:30:47,869 --> 00:30:49,289 [laughs] except that they exist. 628 00:30:49,779 --> 00:30:54,619 And B that's not how backlighting works on our keyboards. 629 00:30:54,809 --> 00:31:02,563 The LEDs and our keyboards are attached, I mean, it's soldered onto the PCB and 630 00:31:02,563 --> 00:31:04,813 the key switch sits on top of them. 631 00:31:06,293 --> 00:31:13,006 The switches that are labeled RGB have transparent housing and/ or a 632 00:31:13,006 --> 00:31:18,936 little cutout [laughs] in the housing, right above where the LED is so that 633 00:31:18,936 --> 00:31:20,446 the light can, can shine through. 634 00:31:21,446 --> 00:31:21,866 Erez: Right. 635 00:31:23,166 --> 00:31:23,646 Okay. 636 00:31:23,656 --> 00:31:28,076 So all it is is when people see RGB in a switch, it's just... 637 00:31:28,166 --> 00:31:30,146 So wait, so a switch, which isn't RGB- 638 00:31:30,146 --> 00:31:31,176 Tisha: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 639 00:31:31,176 --> 00:31:32,246 ... Erez: is going to hide the light? 640 00:31:32,476 --> 00:31:32,876 Tisha: Right. 641 00:31:32,936 --> 00:31:33,766 It's opaque. 642 00:31:33,946 --> 00:31:35,316 It sits on top of the light. 643 00:31:36,206 --> 00:31:37,336 You won't be able to see the light. 644 00:31:38,096 --> 00:31:38,436 Erez: Okay. 645 00:31:38,436 --> 00:31:42,046 So that really matters because when you go to the site and you see 646 00:31:42,046 --> 00:31:47,256 Cherry MX Brown, it doesn't say non RGB, it just says Cherry MX Brown. 647 00:31:47,626 --> 00:31:47,946 Tisha: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 648 00:31:48,046 --> 00:31:50,656 Erez: And then you buy the thing and you get the box and you put it in 649 00:31:50,656 --> 00:31:54,696 your board because you can hot swap, and suddenly your lights are gone. 650 00:31:56,016 --> 00:31:56,366 Tisha: Right. 651 00:31:56,946 --> 00:31:57,286 Erez: Okay. 652 00:31:58,476 --> 00:31:58,776 Tisha: Right. 653 00:31:58,856 --> 00:32:04,108 So if you want to put switches in your keyboard that has backlighting, you know, 654 00:32:04,108 --> 00:32:10,988 that has LEDs under the keys, then you'll want something that is RGB compatible, 655 00:32:11,028 --> 00:32:16,138 which we designate with just RGB in parentheses, after the name of the switch. 656 00:32:16,768 --> 00:32:20,828 If you're looking elsewhere for switches, I mean, they designate in 657 00:32:20,828 --> 00:32:24,888 various ways, but usually they say RGB somewhere in the title or description. 658 00:32:25,778 --> 00:32:26,058 Erez: Right. 659 00:32:26,468 --> 00:32:26,988 Okay. 660 00:32:27,068 --> 00:32:27,378 Tisha: Yep. 661 00:32:27,408 --> 00:32:30,998 And it's just that the housing lets the light pass through. 662 00:32:31,048 --> 00:32:33,148 The switch itself doesn't actually do anything. 663 00:32:33,668 --> 00:32:34,818 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 664 00:32:35,148 --> 00:32:35,678 Okay. 665 00:32:36,528 --> 00:32:41,998 So then, you know, we kind of, again, we invoked typewriters and this whole 666 00:32:41,998 --> 00:32:44,258 notion of tactility and all that. 667 00:32:44,258 --> 00:32:48,908 So a lot of this stuff, and I guess this is also why it's nice that we're talking 668 00:32:48,908 --> 00:32:51,168 about this rather than just a spec sheet. 669 00:32:51,618 --> 00:32:53,688 A lot of it is subjective. 670 00:32:53,688 --> 00:32:54,248 Right. 671 00:32:54,502 --> 00:32:58,222 Like, you know, why not just play some switch sounds because 672 00:32:58,232 --> 00:33:02,182 these can change even according to the room you're in, right? 673 00:33:02,322 --> 00:33:03,392 Tisha: Oh yeah, totally. 674 00:33:03,492 --> 00:33:07,955 A switch will, you know, you've got the, the, your basic characteristics 675 00:33:07,975 --> 00:33:11,385 of a switch, but how you type on it. 676 00:33:11,805 --> 00:33:15,355 I mean, that's going to be the biggest factor aside from the 677 00:33:15,355 --> 00:33:17,195 switch itself, how you type on it. 678 00:33:17,715 --> 00:33:22,235 But then, you know, the material your desk is made out of and 679 00:33:22,585 --> 00:33:24,535 qualities of the room that you're in. 680 00:33:24,595 --> 00:33:31,302 If you're typing on a switch that's fairly quiet, but you're in a small room without 681 00:33:31,302 --> 00:33:35,372 a lot of sound absorbing material in it, you know, it's going to sound louder than 682 00:33:35,372 --> 00:33:40,284 if you're in a big room with a lot of like soft furniture and stuff, yeah... 683 00:33:40,614 --> 00:33:41,974 It depends on a lot of things. 684 00:33:42,354 --> 00:33:46,014 And, and how the switch feels to you, [laughs] how, how the switch 685 00:33:46,014 --> 00:33:50,314 feels to me is not necessarily going to be how it feels to you. 686 00:33:51,734 --> 00:33:52,314 Erez: So how... 687 00:33:52,824 --> 00:33:56,984 So like what, what do I do if I'm trying to figure it out, okay, I'm gonna, I 688 00:33:57,024 --> 00:34:01,194 think I might want this keyboard, but you know, the keyboard looks nice, 689 00:34:01,224 --> 00:34:06,454 but just having to pick out a key switch is such an overwhelming thing. 690 00:34:06,464 --> 00:34:07,804 How can I make it, you know, if it's... 691 00:34:07,804 --> 00:34:11,824 certainly, if it's my first keyboard, how can I make it less overwhelming? 692 00:34:11,824 --> 00:34:14,994 What would you suggest in this case if it's so subjective? 693 00:34:15,314 --> 00:34:15,744 Tisha: Right. 694 00:34:15,754 --> 00:34:17,574 And it really is overwhelming. 695 00:34:17,624 --> 00:34:19,404 I can sympathize with that. 696 00:34:19,464 --> 00:34:23,694 It's a gigantic rabbit hole that is so easy to get lost in. 697 00:34:24,334 --> 00:34:28,664 So y- one of the things that you can do is buy a keyswitch tester, 698 00:34:29,394 --> 00:34:37,077 which you can find on, you know, on Amazon, on various sites that sell 699 00:34:37,487 --> 00:34:39,097 mechanical keyboards and accessories. 700 00:34:39,097 --> 00:34:43,284 A lot of them also sell switch testers, which those basically are just a 701 00:34:43,284 --> 00:34:49,887 plastic base with key switches in them [laughs] and little key caps on top. 702 00:34:50,377 --> 00:34:51,787 You know, It's not hooked up to anything. 703 00:34:51,899 --> 00:34:56,459 You can't plug it into a computer, it's just so that you can experience 704 00:34:56,469 --> 00:34:58,069 firsthand how switches feel. 705 00:34:59,959 --> 00:35:02,955 Erez: And how closely do you think that would mimic the typing experience. 706 00:35:02,955 --> 00:35:05,249 It's one key switch of each type, right? 707 00:35:05,249 --> 00:35:05,879 It's not like, 708 00:35:05,929 --> 00:35:06,619 Tisha: Right. 709 00:35:06,859 --> 00:35:08,269 ... Erez: a row or anything. 710 00:35:09,269 --> 00:35:14,969 Tisha: My feeling on it is that it's better than nothing because 711 00:35:15,399 --> 00:35:21,729 touch and tactility is a difficult thing to describe in language. 712 00:35:22,712 --> 00:35:24,562 It's kind of like smell or taste. 713 00:35:24,562 --> 00:35:29,972 It's hard to describe to someone else accurately how something smells or tastes. 714 00:35:30,562 --> 00:35:33,042 It's just something that you have to experience firsthand. 715 00:35:33,832 --> 00:35:34,852 So it's helpful that way. 716 00:35:34,862 --> 00:35:38,432 And especially if you're brand new and you don't know, I mean, am I 717 00:35:38,432 --> 00:35:42,232 going to like a linear switch better than a tactile switch or vice versa? 718 00:35:42,602 --> 00:35:46,325 A switch tester can be really really helpful in that regard, you've... 719 00:35:46,405 --> 00:35:47,585 Erez: The broad strokes. 720 00:35:47,655 --> 00:35:48,035 Tisha: Right. 721 00:35:48,035 --> 00:35:48,465 Erez: Pardon the pun. 722 00:35:48,485 --> 00:35:54,625 Like basically for Oh, tactile feels good or, Oh, you know, my spouse 723 00:35:54,625 --> 00:35:57,485 doesn't mind clicky or things like that. 724 00:35:58,145 --> 00:35:58,545 Tisha: Right. 725 00:35:58,575 --> 00:35:59,115 Exactly. 726 00:35:59,125 --> 00:36:04,495 And maybe to compare switches to each other, let's say that Oh, I already 727 00:36:04,495 --> 00:36:08,965 know that I probably want a linear switch, but do I want a light- a 728 00:36:08,965 --> 00:36:14,269 lightweight one, a low actuation for a switch, like a red, for example 729 00:36:14,779 --> 00:36:16,519 or a heavier one, like a black. 730 00:36:16,909 --> 00:36:18,049 Well, and you can compare them. 731 00:36:18,049 --> 00:36:20,399 It's like, Oh, I, you know, this feels good. 732 00:36:20,409 --> 00:36:22,489 This or this feels a little too heavy. 733 00:36:22,489 --> 00:36:23,279 I don't know about that. 734 00:36:23,809 --> 00:36:30,263 So broad strokes and comparison are I think good uses for a switch tester. 735 00:36:31,553 --> 00:36:34,063 Obviously it's going to be different when you have a keyboard 736 00:36:34,063 --> 00:36:35,313 full of one type of switch. 737 00:36:36,203 --> 00:36:40,659 But there's no real way to replicate that besides just typing on a 738 00:36:40,659 --> 00:36:42,009 keyboard full of one type of switch. 739 00:36:42,019 --> 00:36:42,239 Right? 740 00:36:42,269 --> 00:36:43,209 Erez: Right, right. 741 00:36:43,259 --> 00:36:48,139 I guess that's kind of, that's part of why I really wanted to make keyboards that 742 00:36:48,219 --> 00:36:52,489 allow you to swap out the switches because it can be you know, a not fun mistake 743 00:36:52,489 --> 00:36:55,839 to make, but if it's reversible, if it's something you can just pull switches 744 00:36:55,839 --> 00:37:01,729 out and plop new ones in, suddenly it's, it's not as daunting, I guess. 745 00:37:01,779 --> 00:37:02,159 Right? 746 00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:02,869 Tisha: Right. 747 00:37:02,879 --> 00:37:04,859 You're not stuck with it forever. 748 00:37:05,389 --> 00:37:05,429 [laughs]. 749 00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:06,084 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 750 00:37:06,419 --> 00:37:06,949 Right. 751 00:37:07,699 --> 00:37:08,229 Well, great. 752 00:37:08,249 --> 00:37:12,169 This was super interesting, I guess later down the road, we're going to 753 00:37:12,199 --> 00:37:15,479 start talking about specific switches. 754 00:37:16,019 --> 00:37:16,106 Tisha: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 755 00:37:16,149 --> 00:37:20,919 Erez: But I think that's a really solid intro to the field and what's, 756 00:37:20,929 --> 00:37:26,039 you know, why, kind of why is there enough here to actually have a bunch 757 00:37:26,039 --> 00:37:28,079 of episodes discussing each switch. 758 00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:30,259 So this was really interesting to hear. 759 00:37:31,109 --> 00:37:31,329 Tisha: All right. 760 00:37:31,339 --> 00:37:31,699 Great. 761 00:37:31,739 --> 00:37:34,099 I hope that I hope that people find this helpful. 762 00:37:34,243 --> 00:37:34,773 Erez: Awesome. 763 00:37:34,823 --> 00:37:35,893 Well, thank you so much. 764 00:37:36,003 --> 00:37:36,373 Tisha: Sure. 765 00:37:36,373 --> 00:37:36,973 Thank you.