Hello and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches. I'm Erez from ZSA and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. How's it going, Tisha?

Hi. it's going okay. How are you?

Not too bad.

[laughs].

Okay. So , today, I guess let's talk about some things that people who are new to mechanical keyboards might want to know before we dive in deep into what the differences between key switches are, what are key switches, right? Like what's a mechanical key switch anyway?

Mm-hmm [ Affirmative]

So what's, what's your take on it?

[laughs]

What's a mechanical key switch?

Well very basically it's the thing that lets your keyboard send stuff [laughs] to your computer. There's there's an individual switch, an individual separate switch per key. A very small device with a spring and metal contacts inside and, depending on the switch, maybe some other stuff.

Right. So you kind of emphasize the individual switch there, that I guess is in comparison to, say, rubber dome keyboards and things like that?

Right. Where in a rubber dome keyboard, you've got basically a rubber sheet that has a little dome in the position of each key and when you press the key it hits the dome and on the underside of the dome makes contact with the PCB and that's what sends the signal to your computer. But this is a single, I think, kind of like a single piece of hardware for all of the keyboards keys, as opposed to an individual piece of hardware for each key.

Right, right. You know, when I was 14, I had this early, maybe even the original Microsoft natural ergonomic keyboard.

[laughs]. Right.

And I, of course, spilled something all over it and it was an expensive keyboard, right. I wanted to salvage it. So I ended up taking it apart and I actually kind of Jerry rigged like a clothesline in my room and I hung the rubber sheet to dry.

[laughs]. Right.

And that's when I was like, "Oh, so that's, that's how it works." It's like, and it worked later, like I could actually dry it out and I got it back to working, so right. But okay. So mechanical key switches, well they're individual. Right. And they have moving parts inside, but you know, if you look at, for example, modern day laptops, they don't have those rubber sheets. Right?

Right. For the most part, they don't. Partially because they're, you know, there just isn't room. They have a different type of mechanism. I tend to think about it as a middle ground between rubber dome and mechanical key switches, because there is an individual mechanism per key.

So it's basically, you have like a mechanism per every key, but it's not, it doesn't work like that. It's not like a metal leaf and a spring and that kind of thing?

Right. There is not a spring. Again, there wouldn't really be, if you think about how flat most laptop keyboards are, there isn't room for a spring or very many things at all.

Right. So really, mechanical key switches the way we think about them, they actually predate laptops. Right? I mean, we're talking about Eighties or earlier technology. Right?

Right. Totally. Yeah.

Why, why are they still a thing, do you think? Like, why do people like us obsess over mechanical key switches where, you know, I'm not clamoring to use like an EGA monitor. Yay. You know?

[laughs].

What's, what's the appeal?

Boy, I think there are a lot of reasons. But I'm sure for most people, the biggest reason is because they feel, well for most people, they feel better. They feel different. They are in at least some keyboards easily replaceable. So if you want your keyboard to feel different, you can just, in many types of keyboards, just pop those switches out and put new ones in. Or if you, [laughs] if you spill something and maybe you get liquid inside the switch, well, that might not be the end of the world. If everything else is okay, you can just put a new switch in. But I think mostly it's just that they feel... they're just so much more satisfying to type on than other types of keyboards, at least to the people who like [laughs] right, to the people who like mechanical key switches, it's because they feel more satisfying.

Right. So, so you say, feel.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Would you say they also sound different? Like, are they loud? Is that a part of the appeal? Like the, the loudness there?

Certainly for some people it is. There is quite a range of noise level in mechanical key switches. The quietest , which are specialized switches that have built in sound dampening, those can be almost as quiet as a normal laptop keyboard. Possibly a little bit quieter than something like that old original Microsoft Natural, which I also used. And if you really got [laughs] if you really got typing on it, you know, that thing could, could make a good amount of noise. [laughs].

Yeah. It would be like a plastic on plastic kind of noise running, I means, as I whack the keys, I would, you know, I remember long nights in IRC and whatever, it would like, it's a plastic on plastic type of thing. Right?

Yep. Totally.

You still get that the mechanical keyboards today though, even if you use a relatively quiet key switch, you're still going to get this plastic on plastic "thwack". No?

You definitely can. That a lot of times will come down to how you type. How I type, which is pretty percussively and hitting the switches, hitting the keys pretty hard then, yes. Any keyboard is going to be noisy because I'm pounding the heck out of it.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Maybe someone with a more [laughs] disciplined or restrained typing style is not going to get so much of that plastic-on-plastic because they're just not getting that "thwack, thwack, thwack" as they hit the keys hard. If you hit the key softly, you keyboard overall is probably going to be a little, a little quieter.

So this is actually interesting 'cause you mentioned your own personal typing and I can't help, but mention... your words-per-minute is insane. Right? What's like your words-per-minute typing rate more or less?

I would say for just everyday typing, like I'm not trying super hard because I'm being measured , maybe in the 140 to 150 range, maybe 140. And I've maxed out at around 160.

All right. So 140 words. That's words per minute?

Right.

When you're not trying so hard.

Right.

So, [laughs] so would you say that using a mechanical keyboard makes any sort of difference speed wise? Are you just as fast on the laptop say, or does the keyboard make any sort of difference for you?

That is a tough question to answer because there's kind of more than one dimension at play here. I have, I would, before I switched to ... well let me back up for a second and say that the 160 max-out was on a Moonlander.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

So we're talking about a split keyboard that I have tented that has the straight columns of keys. Those things all for me have, have made at least some difference.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

When I go back now... I still do use a laptop keyboard fairly regularly, but not heavily. And I type more slowly on it than I do on a Moonlander or an Ergodox.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative].

If I would...

The funny thing is also, obviously those boards are shaped different. Right. But do you think some of that is also due to the switches, like the actual keys?

I do think so. In my case, and you know, I kind of have to qualify that, to say that everyone's different, everyone types differently, everyone's hands and fingers are different. Because I find the deeper key depth, the longer key travel, which is something we'll talk about in a second , works better for me than the really short travel, the really flat keys on a laptop. There's something about, I think the, I guess the recoil action on my key that's deeper that is beneficial for my typing.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. What key switches do you use right now?

In my Moonlander, I am using the Kailh Box Brown.

Hmm. Tactile. Well, actually before we, before I start throwing around like terms... tactile, and you touched on key travel. Let's talk a little bit about these terms of arts.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

So , as you know, as people dig into key switches... key switches are, I think interesting because they are hard to describe. That's kind of why we decided to have this format rather than play some recordings because really they're subjective to a degree. Right? And as you dig into it, you're going to find a whole bunch of terms being thrown around. Obviously there's the more informal, like a "thock" versus a "thwack" and people really trying to capture the acoustics there, but also more, you know, there's a bunch of terms that you will find on the spec sheets. Like for example, yeah, what's key travel or pre-travel, what are those, for example?

Well, key travel is the total distance that you can press the key before it physically stops. And that physical stop point is the bottom out, which is another term that you'll see if you... And this is, this is the way I type, which is part of that percussive typing style. If you press your keys all the way down until they stop because they've hit bottom, that's bottoming out. And that means your, that's the maximum, that's the total key travel distance is from the, the neutral, "not-touching-it" position [laughs] to pressing it all the way down. And most let's say standard "normal key switches", all of the switches that we carry for our keyboards, the total key travel distance tends to be two around millimeters.

Mm-hmm [ affirmative]. And then somewhere along there, like it's not going to actuate at the very bottom. Right. I don't have to like do the whole two millimeters to get something to show on my screen?

Right. Oh, I'm sorry. Four millimeters for the...

Four millimeters?

Right. Yup.

Okay. So then, so I don't have to go all the way down to get it to actuate.

Right.

So somewhere along there is what we call the actuation point. Right?

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And here is another difference between a mechanical key switch and other types of keyboard mechanisms with both rubber domes and laptop keyboards, you do have to push the key all the way down to actuate it because the circuit isn't closed until the key is pressed all the way down.

Right.

With a mechanical key switch, the actuation point isn't at the very bottom. Where it is depends on the switch, on the type of switch and the distance between, I guess the, the downward distance you have to press the key before it actuates is the pre-travel.

Okay. So however... Let's say we have four millimeters, whatever, however much it is. And I kind of, I'm being very gentle with it and I go very, very slowly and I pass like one millimeter and then I get the letter A on my screen. So that was like a one millimeter pre-travel.

Right.

Okay. I guess maybe one thing worth, worth noting is that often when you look at spec sheets, you have like a little plus minus sign next to it, right?

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah. These are these are mechanical things with a lot of moving parts. And so they're not 100% identical. There are tiny variances. So yeah, you're, there's going to be, there's going to be small differences switch to switch. And they should be, you know, if you've got a keyboard full of the same type of switch and you're just typing along normally, these are not differences that you're going to notice.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

But if you put them in some sort of tester, or [laughs] if you very meticulously, you know, press your switches extremely slow and pay a lot of attention, then you might notice.

Right. Right. So, okay. That makes sense. So that's, that's our travel. And then another term that people come across, I think is actuation force. Right?

Right. I did want to mention regarding pre-travel that there are kind of two big categories of switches that, and again, I'm going to use the word "normal" or "standard". Maybe "default" is a better word. Most key switches have an actuation point about halfway down, I guess. So their pre-travel distance tends to be about half of their total travel distance. If your switch's total key travel is about four millimeters, then its actuation point is going to be about two millimeters down usually. But there are speed switches, and we carry a few of these and there are a whole lot more out there with a high actuation point, meaning that their pre-travel tends to be more like, and, and this is something you may want to look at in the switches spec, the pre-travel is more like between 1 and 1.5 millimeters.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. So like almost half, a half as much.

Right.

And actually, let me pull up, I want to pull up a spec sheet real quick here, because this is interesting. So let me just, if I go to our own key switches page, even. So for example, okay. Yeah. So I'm looking at the Cherry MX Brown here, which is the first switch on our page, and I see your pre-travel of two millimeters, plus-minus 0.6. So the plus-minus there, the, the margin is actually pretty generous.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

And then, okay, so here is a speed switch, the Kailh bronze, for example. So that's, pre-travel 1.4 mil with plus-minus 0.3. So it's almost half as much. So would these actually... So they're called speed switches. Will they actually make me faster?

I think [laughs] that that's a matter of opinion and maybe of perception. I think that there are some people who do, who do feel that they make them a little faster. That may be when gaming, they give them a little bit of a faster response time.

Right.

For me, they don't make me feel like I'm typing faster or that my typing is somehow faster, but, you know, again, there's this really is kind of a subject-, even, [laughs] even though it has an objective measure, the effect can, I think be a little subjective.

Right. Because it's still a human being using the thing. Right. So...

Right.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Okay.

And, yeah. And there's a lot going on aside from just what's going on in the keyboard [laughs] between you pressing a key and your computer doing something. So...

Okay. So whatever speed... So yeah, there's a bunch there, right. I mean, there, there's the whole like fine motor skills aspect of it, right, of those keys are touchier in a sense.

Right.

More, are they, would you say they're more prone to like accidental activation and like getting stuff...?

I think they can be, especially if you ... like if you rest your hands on your keyboard when you're not typing and you're just thinking, and your fingers are just kinda there, maybe you tap or wiggle your fingers a little bit. Yeah. Some of them you could end up with, with some accidental key presses more, more easily, I think. Or if you type such that you sometimes bump another key with your finger, sort of [laughs] like on the way to a different key, you bump one between your home row and the other key. You might. That is another thing that's very dependent on your own typing style and the way you move your fingers and so forth.

Right. Right. Okay. So now looking at this page I just pulled up, our own key switches page, for every switch we note also actuation force. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Sure. And that really is just the amount of force required to make the switch actuate.

As in, so... so there's a fine point here as in actually, not necessarily bottom out. It's however much force I need to push down with, just to get a character on the screen. It's possible that getting the switch all the way down would require more force than that?

Sure. That is possible just depending on various characteristics of the switch. For some of them the actuation force and the, I guess "bottom-out force" is going to be pretty much the same. But yeah, but not all of them.

Mm-hmm

And it's, there, there are a lot of numbers [laughs] and honestly, I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the actual number because, you know, what does 45 grams of force mean for my hands and fingers? I don't know. [laughs]. But they're useful, you know, again, to me, they're much more useful in relative terms, kind of compared to each other. Okay. So there are a bunch of switches that I see that are in the maybe 40 to 50 grams range. And then you have, let's say, you know, 45 to 50, and then you have lighter ones that are maybe more like 40 and you have heavier ones that are 50 and above. That is the, the more useful thing to pay attention to, for me.

Right. So how they sit in relation to each other, like one that's 45 versus one that's I dunno, 80. So the 45 is definitely going to be noticeably easier to press.

Right.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. All right. So then another, I guess three key terms is like linear, tactile and clicky. Clicky kind of makes sense. Right? Clicky switches are switches that you press down and they click?

Right.

Okay. And then linear and tactile, those are maybe a little bit less obvious.

Right? Well, clicky switches, clicky and tactile have a lot in common.

Hmm.

They both provide tactile feedback. And what that means is that near, at or near [laughs] the point that the switch actuates, th- there's a little bump that of extra resistance. So as you're pushing the switch down, you kind of feel an increase in resistance. And then it, if you keep pushing through that, then the resistance becomes lighter because you've gone past the tactile bump. It's kind of like a little hill as you're pressing the switch down, you're sort of climbing the hill. And then after you pass or press through the tactile bump, you've crested the hill and now you're back on your way down.

How noticeable is that in practice? Like when you were going 160 words per minute, can you, you know, that's a ton of key presses. Can you feel it?

I would say a little bit. And again, it depends on the switch because some of them have a very light, gentle, tactile bump, and some of them have quite a firm sharp bump or their bump is, I guess, you know, bigger... kind of the increased resistance. I don't know really how to say this. The resistance is increased through more of the downward distance, if that makes sense. Some of them, you have a small, maybe sharp tactile bump where you feel a quick ... a quick increase in resistance. And some of them is...

Like a, like a little spike. Like a hard spike, but if we're looking at an actuation graph, a hard spike, but a short one, is that what you're getting at?

Right. Yeah. And some of them it's longer, the increase in resistance would be more of kind of a rounded bump shape.

Yeah. More of a rounded graph rather than like a sharp spike.

Right. So both tactile and clicky switches have that increased ... That resistance bump that is there to tell your fingers when the switch is actuating.

Right.

Clicky switches have...

That's, that's...

Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

No, sorry. Just that one is actually interesting. 'Cause you say, "tell your fingers when the switch is actuating", but I guess it's almost when the switch is actuating. Right? 'Cause it's not actually at the same point, is it?

Right. And again, this is generally only something that most people will be able to detect if they're very carefully and slowly pressing a switch to see exactly when everything happens. Most standard switches, the peak of the tactile bump and the actuation come at basically the same time.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

With a speed switch, the ones with the high actuation point, the short pre-travel distance... the peak of the tactile bump comes just after the switch actuates. Because the actuation point is so high, it comes so soon, it comes just before the tactile bump.

So if I'm being like, if I have a tactile speed switch and I'm being, featherlight when I'm typing, I could theoretically get stuff on my screen without getting the tactile bumps even?

Right. Yes.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Interesting.

I, for me, that would be difficult. [laughs].

Right.

But, you know, again, everyone, everyone types differently. So, sure. Yeah.

I think for me, I, I type in a linear switch, which I guess we're going to get to now.

Right. Yeah. Just quickly the, the clicky switches, the main difference between clicky and tactile is that clicky switches have an, an extra thing in the switch literally that makes them click. [laughs].

So that's an extra thing. It's not like a part of the switch that's differently designed. It's actually like a little clicker thing?

Right.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

And you know, I don't know a lot about the specific types. There are some different types of click mechanisms. [laughs]. But yeah, there's just, there's an extra little, extra little thing in there. A click bar is a common one. Yeah, so it makes, it just makes an extra little bit of noise. [laughs].

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Cool.

And so linear switches don't have the click and they don't have the tactile bump. They feel smooth. And the resistance is the same throughout their whole travel distance. So you press switch down, it feels the same until you hit bottom.

All right. That's straightforward.

Yeah.

So then if I'm new to mechanical keywords and I'm just trying to kind of narrow the field a little bit, because there is such an overwhelming number of switches in each of these categories and I'm trying to decide. Okay. Should I go linear? Should I go tactile? Should I go clicky? I'm trying to narrow the field. I guess, I guess one thing I always tell people is clicky is only if you're working by yourself, right? Like office mates, spouses, even some pets, not big fans of clicky switches. Right?

Right.

Are there any kind of like quick rules of thumb that you could offer for people looking to narrow the field? Oh, If you're like this then maybe look at linear, if you're like that, maybe look at tactile and stuff like that?

Right. So I'd say if you want something very light feeling, if you type with a light touch already, or if you just want a key that's really easy to press, [laughs] you may like a linear switch better. So you don't have that increased resistance of the tactile bump.

Right. That's, I sometimes recommend that... sometimes we get people with, who already have RSI or arthritis or conditions like that. And for them, I tend to also recommend linear I guess. Yeah.

Right.

Maybe specifically a speed switch even.

Sure. , I think is can be a good, a good first switch. You know, you've got a nice, as long as, [laughs] as long as you're working in an environment or as long as you'll be using your keyboard in an environment where some noise is okay, they're not as loud as a clicky switch, but they're not particularly quiet either. You can hear the typing.

Right.

So if that's okay, and if you want something that "feels like a mechanical keyboard", then a tactile switch is a nice ... is a nice option. You get some some tactile feedback as you're typing.

Right. So ins- instead of like trying to let say like most people will, if you come from a laptop keyboard, so instead of going linear that, you know, maybe is at least nominally closer to a laptop experience, you would say, let's actually lean into the mechanical aspect here and go with tactile and kind of embrace that, that well more tactile feeling basically.

Right. Right. And if you're really old, like me [laughs] and typed on you know, typewriters, the ultimate mechanical typing experience , so maybe not so much your manual typewriters, but if you remember electric typewriters, if you remember typing on an IBM Selectric or something like that, where you felt when that, you know, depending on when it was, when that daisy wheel or when that ball hit the paper, you felt that in the keys.

Right.

A tactile switch, you know, it's, it's going to be different. Obviously you're not talking about a metal ball and a piece of paper, but a tactile or a clicky switch does give you a feeling, you know, it provides tactile feedback when the switch actuates basically. When the letter shows up on your screen [laughs].

Right. It kind of makes point of, I'm a mechanical thing. I mean, it's... Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Right. Something has happened.

Right.

And I'm telling your fingers that something has happened.

That's actually an interesting point about speed and typing rate that you're just making now, because really when you type on something that's very flat, then your primary feedback of, "Oh, something happened", is visual. I wonder if this has something to do with processing speeds, mentally, right, versus "I can really feel in my fingers that something has happened", and I can move on to the next thing versus a hand- eye operation of, "Oh, a character has appeared, I'll move on to the next one", which obviously happens faster. Right? But I just, you know, just kind of made me wonder. I wonder if, you know, if the fact that so much of the feedback is tactile with mechanical keyboards, if that contributes to the speeds, because you h- don't have as much mental processing to do, it's not like, Oh, I see something that I'm going to type. It's just like, I feel.

Right. Yeah. That's, I hadn't thought about that either, but that's a good point. And it brings me back again to being [laughs] old and learning to type on a typewriter in school. And if you learned touch typing, you don't look at the paper or, or the computer, if you're younger than me and learned to type on a computer, you don't look at your output, you look at what you're typing. Don't look at the keyboard, don't look at the paper or the screen. So you, you learn... well, touch typing. You learn to type by feel-

Right.

not by seeing what's going on.

Right. You look at the paper you're transcribing or whatever-

Right.

not your output. Makes sense. Okay. So, so, you know, we kind of looked at, at the olden days and typewriters and stuff.

[laughs]. Right.

Now we live in the future and a big part of the future is it's very shiny. There is RGB, there is lights everywhere, right.

Right.

Stuff lights up now. Typewriters didn't use to do that. I don't think they did. Right?

None of the ones I used.

[laughs]. So I guess a common misconception that some people have ... you know, keyboards light up. Right? And we know keywords have key switches in them. And some people you know, they talk to me and they think, Oh, the key switch lights up. Right. If I, some of the key switches on our website, say RGB, red, green, blue. Right. So people think, "Oh, if I buy this key switch and I'm going to stick it in the board it will start shining, like it has a light inside." But that's not actually how it works. Right?

Right. That's not how it works with our keyboards anyway. There are some switches out there in the world that have LEDs in them. But A, I don't know, I basically don't know anything about those switches [laughs] except that they exist. And B that's not how backlighting works on our keyboards. The LEDs and our keyboards are attached, I mean, it's soldered onto the PCB and the key switch sits on top of them. The switches that are labeled RGB have transparent housing and/ or a little cutout [laughs] in the housing, right above where the LED is so that the light can, can shine through.

Right. Okay. So all it is is when people see RGB in a switch, it's just... So wait, so a switch, which isn't RGB-

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

is going to hide the light?

Right. It's opaque. It sits on top of the light. You won't be able to see the light.

Okay. So that really matters because when you go to the site and you see Cherry MX Brown, it doesn't say non RGB, it just says Cherry MX Brown.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

And then you buy the thing and you get the box and you put it in your board because you can hot swap, and suddenly your lights are gone.

Right.

Okay.

Right. So if you want to put switches in your keyboard that has backlighting, you know, that has LEDs under the keys, then you'll want something that is RGB compatible, which we designate with just RGB in parentheses, after the name of the switch. If you're looking elsewhere for switches, I mean, they designate in various ways, but usually they say RGB somewhere in the title or description.

Right. Okay.

Yep. And it's just that the housing lets the light pass through. The switch itself doesn't actually do anything.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Okay. So then, you know, we kind of, again, we invoked typewriters and this whole notion of tactility and all that. So a lot of this stuff, and I guess this is also why it's nice that we're talking about this rather than just a spec sheet. A lot of it is subjective. Right. Like, you know, why not just play some switch sounds because these can change even according to the room you're in, right?

Oh yeah, totally. A switch will, you know, you've got the, the, your basic characteristics of a switch, but how you type on it. I mean, that's going to be the biggest factor aside from the switch itself, how you type on it. But then, you know, the material your desk is made out of and qualities of the room that you're in. If you're typing on a switch that's fairly quiet, but you're in a small room without a lot of sound absorbing material in it, you know, it's going to sound louder than if you're in a big room with a lot of like soft furniture and stuff, yeah... It depends on a lot of things. And, and how the switch feels to you, [laughs] how, how the switch feels to me is not necessarily going to be how it feels to you.

So how... So like what, what do I do if I'm trying to figure it out, okay, I'm gonna, I think I might want this keyboard, but you know, the keyboard looks nice, but just having to pick out a key switch is such an overwhelming thing. How can I make it, you know, if it's... certainly, if it's my first keyboard, how can I make it less overwhelming? What would you suggest in this case if it's so subjective?

Right. And it really is overwhelming. I can sympathize with that. It's a gigantic rabbit hole that is so easy to get lost in. So y- one of the things that you can do is buy a keyswitch tester, which you can find on, you know, on Amazon, on various sites that sell mechanical keyboards and accessories. A lot of them also sell switch testers, which those basically are just a plastic base with key switches in them [laughs] and little key caps on top. You know, It's not hooked up to anything. You can't plug it into a computer, it's just so that you can experience firsthand how switches feel.

And how closely do you think that would mimic the typing experience. It's one key switch of each type, right? It's not like,

Right.

a row or anything.

My feeling on it is that it's better than nothing because touch and tactility is a difficult thing to describe in language. It's kind of like smell or taste. It's hard to describe to someone else accurately how something smells or tastes. It's just something that you have to experience firsthand. So it's helpful that way. And especially if you're brand new and you don't know, I mean, am I going to like a linear switch better than a tactile switch or vice versa? A switch tester can be really really helpful in that regard, you've...

The broad strokes.

Right.

Pardon the pun. Like basically for Oh, tactile feels good or, Oh, you know, my spouse doesn't mind clicky or things like that.

Right. Exactly. And maybe to compare switches to each other, let's say that Oh, I already know that I probably want a linear switch, but do I want a light- a lightweight one, a low actuation for a switch, like a red, for example or a heavier one, like a black. Well, and you can compare them. It's like, Oh, I, you know, this feels good. This or this feels a little too heavy. I don't know about that. So broad strokes and comparison are I think good uses for a switch tester. Obviously it's going to be different when you have a keyboard full of one type of switch. But there's no real way to replicate that besides just typing on a keyboard full of one type of switch. Right?

Right, right. I guess that's kind of, that's part of why I really wanted to make keyboards that allow you to swap out the switches because it can be you know, a not fun mistake to make, but if it's reversible, if it's something you can just pull switches out and plop new ones in, suddenly it's, it's not as daunting, I guess. Right?

Right. You're not stuck with it forever. [laughs].

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Right. Well, great. This was super interesting, I guess later down the road, we're going to start talking about specific switches.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

But I think that's a really solid intro to the field and what's, you know, why, kind of why is there enough here to actually have a bunch of episodes discussing each switch. So this was really interesting to hear.

All right. Great. I hope that I hope that people find this helpful.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Sure. Thank you.