Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches. I'm Erez from ZSA, and with me here today is Tisha, our resident switch expert and support lead. How's it going, Tisha?

It's going okay. How are you?

I'm good. I'm good. It's getting to be springtime here in Southern Ontario, and I'm liking it.

[laughs] It is here too in Chicago, and I'm a winter person, so I'm a little sad.

All right. So today we're here to talk about some Brown switches, right?

Right. Yeah. We carry a few different Brown switches, mm-hmm [affirmative].

Cool. So those are, those will be tactile switches.

Right.

So maybe we kind of covered this in the intro, but maybe let's, let's cover that again just briefly. So what is a tactile switch really?

Sure. Tactile switches have, basically, a little bump of additional resistance, usually at the point the switch actuates, to give your fingers a little tactile feedback as you type.

Right. You know, to me, one thing, reading descriptions of tactile switches, it always, when I read the description, it always seems like that bump is going to be really noticeable. Whereas I find that, at least for me subjectively, often it just feels like a linear switch that's not as smooth. You know what I mean?

Right. I, yeah, I do know what you mean, and it, it depends on the switch. Some of them, I wouldn't say any of them that we carry, but there are switches out there with big tactile bumps where it is something you kind of have to push through. But a lot of them it's more like ... This is maybe kind of a funny description, but like kind of the opposite of a notch.

Oh, okay. It feels kind of like, almost like a recess in the line when you're pressing down. Like a dip, almost.

Right, right. Although we describe it, and it is commonly described, as a bump, so that's kind of the opposite of a notch, but think something generally kind of small like that, not, not big like a stop, but small like, like a little hitch, like a little notch.

Right. I think something a lot of people have experience with, now that I think of it, is with cameras. Sometimes you have a half press, and then you press all the way down, like half press to focus and then you press all the way down to take the picture.

Oh, right.

And there it really stops you, and I think for me that's kind of where I came to tactile switches from. That was my experience with a type of switch that has a midway thing, bump.

[laughs] Right, right.

But it's, it wasn't really like that at all.

No, for the most part it's not going to be that severe at all. It's just, ... I'm trying to think of a, of an analogy. Maybe like if you're, [laughs] if you think of a hardwood floor that's made of little planks of wood that are closely joined together. And if it's done well, so everything's nice and even, but you run your fingers over the floor, you'll just feel kind of a teeny little seam there going between planks. It's maybe a little-

I have never done that.

[laughs]

I, I need to do that. That sounds oddly satisfying.

Right. But even if you haven't done it, maybe you can kind of imagine what it might be like.

Yeah.

We're talking about a small sort of ... texture change. Well, maybe that's not quite the right word, but maybe more like a seam than a bump would be a good description in some cases.

I like it. I, I can see that.

[laughs]

So if it's that subtle, would you say the, the audio profile of those switches is, is kinda like the linear ones? Or is there a difference between, you know, when you're typing in terms of loudness?

Right. Of course it depends on more than just the switch itself, but for the most part they are going to be noticeably louder than linear switches.

They are gonna be noticeably louder?

Yes. Not as loud, you know, so you, you've got kind of the three big categories, linear, tactile and clicky, and these are in the middle. Clicky switches are the loudest. But again, for the most part, they're going to be louder. There are things hitting other things inside the switch.

Right.

And probably also that extra bit of force that you need, ... to I, I guess clear for lack of a better word, the tactile bump will will tend to make a little bit more noise as you're typing.

I never considered that. Right, because most of the noise that, at least with non-clicky switches, I feel most of the noise is kind of plastic-on-plastic, that thwack as the key bottoms out.

Right.

And yeah, I guess with a tactile switch I will press down harder. Even if the switch is rated the same as the linear one, it still has that bump, that yeah, that I got to clear. So I'll kinda thwack it a little bit harder than, than a linear one. That makes sense.

To me they have a, hm ... a pretty typical mechanical keyboard sound. Of course, that's a matter of perspective. I think for a lot of people clicky switches are the stereotypical mechanical keyboard sound, but there's something about that kind of thwock, thwock sound that says mechanical keyboard to me.

Right. So really before we dive into the three types of Brown switches we carry, why would, or why do you think most people go for Brown? Because of that, because of that classic mechanical feel and sound?

I think so, and probably for most people, this is, you know, just a guess, but probably for most people, the feel so that you get a little signal. Your fingertips feel a little signal when the key is actuated. With a linear switch, in general, most of them actuate about halfway down through their travel distance, but you don't get any... there's no change in the way the switch feels when that happens.

Right.

With a tactile switch there's that little change in the way the switch feels that kind of goes hand in hand with the actuation.

I hear, yeah. And it kind of works together as one system. Like you feel it and you see it on your screen.

Right.

And yeah. Yeah, for sure. So then I guess the, the granddaddy of all Brown switches or really all tactile switches would be the Cherry MX Brown, right?

Yeah. I would say so. It's been around a while. It's very popular. It's a switch that a lot of people have heard of. [laughs]

Right. It's actually our default, you know,-

Right.

when, when we were designing both for the ErgoDox and, and the new website, ZSA.io, at some point we had to decide, okay, if I've never heard of switches at all, what's the switch that should be presented as the default? And yeah, MX Brown really feels like that classic switch, you know? Like, when in doubt, MX Brown, right?

Right. Yeah. I think if you're just getting into mechanical keyboards, getting your first mechanical keyboard, it's a good choice — if you're otherwise not really sure about exactly what you want. If you know you want something very quiet or that you prefer something very loud, then, you know, no, there are other ways to go, but if you just, you know, I want something that feels good under my fingers that isn't either too heavy or too light, that gives me a little bit of feedback, this is a nice place to start.

Nice. So how would you characterize the feel of a Cherry MX Brown? So not too heavy, you said.

Right. It is on the lighter side, I would say. I like to describe it, which is, you know, maybe kind of a wishy-washy description, but as light/medium because it's not, it's not super light but it's on the lighter side. So it's not tiring. It's easy to type on, but I think you still do get that feeling of substance, I guess, under your fingers.

Right.

It's not so light that it's, I guess, trivial-feeling.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. One thing people sometimes tell me on the MX Browns (you've probably seen this as well) some people, I don't know, one in I don't know how many, they say they ping on the upstroke, like that they press the switch, it's, the switch is fine, it actuates, but then they let go, and there's like this slight mechanical ting or something like that. Really irritates some people. Have you, have you seen this?

I have and you're right. I don't think that it's ... On one hand I don't think that it's super common. I don't necessarily think that that's the way they all are, but it can happen. And also there are some people who are more sensitive to it than others. Some people who maybe wouldn't, you know, don't even notice it at all and some for whom it's just super annoying. And it's because, I mean, it's because of there is um, a uh, metal spring inside and some other little metal parts. ... It also, I think depends a little bit on how you type. I think if you're an aggressive typer who tends to hit the keys fairly hard, you're more likely to get that. It's kind of almost a little like a metallic impact sound almost

As the metal basically deforms back to its default state, kind of.

Right. I think it's as the, the spring is recoiling

Mm-hmm [affirmative]

Basically. Yeah. So it can happen, and the Cherry MX Brown, it can happen with this switch, yeah. I think that some other tactile switches are less prone to it.

So like, so let's say I wanna, I wanna go tactile, and I'm very concerned about this potential thing. It's just, just to clarify, it's not all of them, is it? Like, it's not-

Right.

It's kind of a... every now and then type of thing, right?

Right. I would say so.

But let's say I'm, you know, I'm very sensitive to, to tinking sounds and what not, but I still wanna go tactile. What, what would I do? What would you suggest?

Well, the Kailh Box Brown is another tactile switch. It's another, you know, Brown. [laughs]

Right.

And pretty similar to the Cherry MX Brown, but at least, I guess in my experience and from what I've heard from users, it doesn't seem to be so prone to that pingy noise.

It makes me think... maybe it's because of the shape of the stem. Because the Box keys, what makes them ... Well, the Box in the Box key is the stem of the key is shaped different versus the classic MX shape, and they are more stable. I wonder if a part of that ting is due to some vibration on the stem that the Box Brown just doesn't have because it's a bit sturdier.

Right. Yeah, maybe so, and maybe the extra just kind of plastic, the extra material in the Box stem, the box part, it provides some insulation.

Just muffles it.

Right.

Hmm.

Yeah. Actually I don't, I don't know, [laughs] but, but maybe.

So would you say that just a regular keycap, like a 1U keycap, ASDF, mounted on a Box switch versus an MX Brown, does it actually feel more stable on, on a Box switch?

Boy, that is a good question. I think, and any of these differences are gonna be super, super small, I think that it might feel like the fit is a little tighter but switch stems have some lateral play built in. It's by design that keys on a mechanical keyboard feel, I mean, I guess a little wobbly. If you put your fingers on the keys and just, without pressing down, just wiggle, you'll be able to wiggle them a little bit by design because when we type, our fingers don't go exactly straight up and down. We hit keys maybe from, from a different angle depending on the row and their column they're in and stuff. So the switch stems need to be able to... need to have a little bit of play to account for that. If they could only move straight up and down with no wiggle, there would be a lot of friction when you typed because you're not hitting the keys exactly straight up and down, if that makes sense.

The key would lock up on me basically. I would try to depress it, but because I'm doing it at an angle, it just, it wouldn't go because it won't translate my angular motion into a straight down, right?

Right, or it would, but it would be, there would be a lot of friction, and it would be kind of difficult. So because of that, I don't necessarily think they feel more stable in that there's less wiggle, but I do think that they might fit just a touch more tightly.

Makes sense. So then the actual experience of typing on Box Browns versus say MX Browns, what's the feel like?

Again, it's, it's very similar. They're meant to be quite similar switches. So all of these differences are small but I feel like the Box Brown has a slightly gentler tactile bump in that it requires maybe a little bit less force, but it's also a little bit crisper feeling bump. The Cherry MX Brown, I tend to describe its tactile bump as being kind of round. It's kind of like a rounded-off hill.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

The Kailh Box Brown is a little bit, it's got a little bit more of a peak at the top. It's a little bit sharper hill.

Interesting. And then do I get the letter on my screen before or after that little hill? Before or after the bump?

You get it basically at the same time. With all of the Brown switches the actuation happens basically at the same time yeah, as, as the tactile bump.

That's an important distinction to me because I think when you look at the graphs and the specs, it seems like, you know, it doesn't happen at exactly the same point, right? Just electrically I guess, the contact is, it has to be before or after, but really in actual use because of the tolerances, it feels like it happens at the same time when you're just typing at full tilt?

Right. Right.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

The Box Brown has a slightly shorter total travel and pre-travel distance, but we're talking fractions of a millimeter. So I don't know. For me, I don't feel a difference. Certainly there are people who may, but these differences are very, very small, like, tenths of a millimeter. [laughs]

Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative]. I guess one thing I can say about the Box Brown switch is, that we found when we started stocking them is if, if you if people look at our site, they'll see that we only offer them with the RGB versions of our boards, the, the ones that light up, because those versions have different keycaps. Those come from Tai-Hao. And there are other keycaps for the ErgoDox, for the ErgoDox EZ, they come from Signature. And those Signature keycaps can actually break when you mount them on a Box Brown switch because the stem is shaped different. And that's, that surprised to me. That's something we found after we started working with them. That's when we made the call, okay, we're only gonna ship them with keycaps that we know to work well with.

Right, right. That's why you'll only see the Kailh Box Brown available for the Moonlander and for the ErgoDox EZ Glow and and the Planck EZ Glow because we know... we've tested and know that they work well with the backlit key caps. But I guess, you know, that ever so slightly tighter fit makes a difference in that the fit isn't great with the Signature key caps.

Yeah. Right. And that actually, another point here, I guess, is that the Box Brown is an RGB switch, and people are sometimes a little bit confused about that, right? They say, okay, RGB, does it have the light in it? But it doesn't. It's just a clear housing that lets light through if the board has that light.

Right. You can put an RGB switch on a non-backlit board. That's no problem at all. The RGB designation just means, I mean, at, at least in our case, you know, I can't, [laughs] I can't speak for other people who sell switches and write their descriptions differently, but in our case, and in most cases that I've seen, it means that the switch either has completely clear housing or in some cases like actually with the Box switches, some of the housing is opaque, but there's a cutout.

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

In the switch, in the, in the spot that sits on top of the LED.

Right, right. So I guess this brings us to the final switch, final Brown switch we offer, which is actually not RGB friendly, right?

Right. Right, the Kailh Brown. It's confusing because a lot of switches have really, really similar names. [laughs] So Kailh Box Brown versus Kailh Brown: they're different switches. Kailh Brown is a little different than the other two because it's... it's heavier than both. It's still obviously a tactile switch. That's why it's called Brown, [laughs] but it's weightier and to me it feels springier. Like you kinda ... as you're typing, at least to me, I feel like, oh yeah, there is, there are springs inside these.

In the sense that it pushes back, or as you're pushing down, like.

Probably more in the sense that it pushes back, but, ... Yeah, but I, you know, and maybe I am giving away a bit about my age here, but if you're someone who ever played with a Slinky when you were a kid I don't know. It's, it's like, a little bit like typing on lots of tiny little Slinkies.

[laughs] I like that. We should put that on the website.

It's springy, which, you know, makes it makes it kind of, I guess both firm and responsive-feeling, I would call it.

So out of all three, totally subjective, which one is your favorite?

Oh boy, that is tough. [laughs] Well, I have to say I've used Kailh Brown the least, so it's hard to compare. I do like a heavier switch, but probably not for heavy typing on all day long because that can get tiring.

Mm-hmm.

There are [laughs] ... I don't think I can pick. There are elements of both the Cherry MX Brown and the Kailh Box Brown that I like a lot. I've used both as my daily driver for long periods of time. I think for me the perfect Brown switch would be a little bit of a combination because I like that the Cherry MX Brown's tactile bump is just a little bit firmer, just a little bit more noticeable, but I like that the Kailh Box Brown's tactile bump is just a little crisper.

Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative].

So it's, that's a cop-out answer, I know. It's like, who's your favorite child? Well, I like them both.

Actually, actually it's an interesting answer because you made that distinction, and I can see, you know, I can see what you're saying, and there's still room, right? So there's room for yet another Brown switch that kind of melds the two and, and does it just right, possibly.

Right, right. But again, also these differences are small, and so that means I am happy to type on both of these switches. I think they're both nice-feeling. I think in general people find the Kailh switches to feel a little smoother than the Cherry switches.

Right.

Yeah.

I do, too. For me it's not, like when I say that the Kailh ones are smoother, I don't so much mean in the shape of the bump, but more along the actual stem. Like as I depress it all the way through, and then it goes up, there's just something, it almost feels like a lubricated switch, which it's not out of the factory as far as I know.

Right.

But it feels very pleasant, like very smooth in that regard rather than the bump itself.

Right. For me I think that that effect is more noticeable on the linear switches than the tactile.

Yeah.

But I, I, but I know what you mean.

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And I agree. I agree. It's a, on a, on a linear switch, that's all you have, right?

Right, exactly.

It's just that up and down motion, so definitely. That said though, there are other tactile switches, right?

There are. And we'll talk about those in future episodes, but we... of course there are more out there in the world, but among the switches that we carry, there's also Kailh Copper and Cherry MX Clear, which we'll talk about later because they're, they're both more different. [laughs] The Brown switches are all pretty similar to each other. The Kailh Copper and Cherry MX Clear switches are different-

Right.

from the Browns and from each other.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Sure. Thank you.

This was fun.

Yeah. I hope it was helpful.

[laughs] All right. See you on the next one.

Yep.