Brown

Hello, and welcome to Tisha Talks Switches. 2 00:00:08,063 --> 00:00:11,890 I'm Erez from ZSA, and with me here today is Tisha, our resident 3 00:00:11,899 --> 00:00:13,750 switch expert and support lead. 4 00:00:14,010 --> 00:00:14,840 How's it going, Tisha? 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:16,110 Tisha: It's going okay. 6 00:00:16,110 --> 00:00:16,620 How are you? 7 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:17,700 Erez: I'm good. 8 00:00:17,700 --> 00:00:18,250 I'm good. 9 00:00:18,410 --> 00:00:21,683 It's getting to be springtime here in Southern Ontario, and I'm liking it. 10 00:00:22,203 --> 00:00:25,763 Tisha: [laughs] It is here too in Chicago, and I'm a winter 11 00:00:25,763 --> 00:00:27,303 person, so I'm a little sad. 12 00:00:30,093 --> 00:00:30,673 Erez: All right. 13 00:00:30,673 --> 00:00:34,403 So today we're here to talk about some Brown switches, right? 14 00:00:35,873 --> 00:00:36,243 Tisha: Right. 15 00:00:36,293 --> 00:00:36,583 Yeah. 16 00:00:36,583 --> 00:00:40,733 We carry a few different Brown switches, mm-hmm [affirmative]. 17 00:00:40,733 --> 00:00:40,753 Erez: Cool. 18 00:00:40,773 --> 00:00:43,053 So those are, those will be tactile switches. 19 00:00:43,203 --> 00:00:43,643 Tisha: Right. 20 00:00:43,703 --> 00:00:46,303 Erez: So maybe we kind of covered this in the intro, but maybe let's, 21 00:00:46,313 --> 00:00:48,260 let's cover that again just briefly. 22 00:00:48,260 --> 00:00:50,180 So what is a tactile switch really? 23 00:00:50,910 --> 00:00:51,540 Tisha: Sure. 24 00:00:51,730 --> 00:00:57,517 Tactile switches have, basically, a little bump of additional resistance, 25 00:00:58,477 --> 00:01:02,770 usually at the point the switch actuates, to give your fingers a 26 00:01:02,770 --> 00:01:04,930 little tactile feedback as you type. 27 00:01:05,670 --> 00:01:06,190 Erez: Right. 28 00:01:06,610 --> 00:01:11,560 You know, to me, one thing, reading descriptions of tactile switches, it 29 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,460 always, when I read the description, it always seems like that bump 30 00:01:15,460 --> 00:01:17,300 is going to be really noticeable. 31 00:01:17,780 --> 00:01:22,550 Whereas I find that, at least for me subjectively, often it just feels like 32 00:01:22,550 --> 00:01:25,550 a linear switch that's not as smooth. 33 00:01:26,430 --> 00:01:27,160 You know what I mean? 34 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:28,630 Tisha: Right. 35 00:01:28,660 --> 00:01:33,510 I, yeah, I do know what you mean, and it, it depends on the switch. 36 00:01:33,510 --> 00:01:37,781 Some of them, I wouldn't say any of them that we carry, but there 37 00:01:37,811 --> 00:01:41,737 are switches out there with big tactile bumps where it is something 38 00:01:41,737 --> 00:01:43,247 you kind of have to push through. 39 00:01:43,807 --> 00:01:48,994 But a lot of them it's more like ... This is maybe kind of a funny description, 40 00:01:49,004 --> 00:01:51,784 but like kind of the opposite of a notch. 41 00:01:53,774 --> 00:01:54,744 Erez: Oh, okay. 42 00:01:54,744 --> 00:01:57,244 It feels kind of like, almost like a recess in the line 43 00:01:57,286 --> 00:01:58,211 when you're pressing down. 44 00:01:58,741 --> 00:02:00,371 Like a dip, almost. 45 00:02:00,491 --> 00:02:01,181 Tisha: Right, right. 46 00:02:01,201 --> 00:02:06,021 Although we describe it, and it is commonly described, as a bump, so 47 00:02:06,021 --> 00:02:10,631 that's kind of the opposite of a notch, but think something generally 48 00:02:10,631 --> 00:02:19,121 kind of small like that, not, not big like a stop, but small like, like a 49 00:02:19,121 --> 00:02:20,731 little hitch, like a little notch. 50 00:02:21,551 --> 00:02:21,961 Erez: Right. 51 00:02:22,541 --> 00:02:26,691 I think something a lot of people have experience with, now that 52 00:02:26,691 --> 00:02:28,451 I think of it, is with cameras. 53 00:02:28,461 --> 00:02:31,421 Sometimes you have a half press, and then you press all the way down, like 54 00:02:31,421 --> 00:02:34,351 half press to focus and then you press all the way down to take the picture. 55 00:02:34,711 --> 00:02:35,561 Tisha: Oh, right. 56 00:02:35,711 --> 00:02:39,741 Erez: And there it really stops you, and I think for me that's kind of 57 00:02:39,751 --> 00:02:43,011 where I came to tactile switches from. 58 00:02:43,081 --> 00:02:48,431 That was my experience with a type of switch that has a midway thing, bump. 59 00:02:48,431 --> 00:02:48,746 Tisha: [laughs] Right, right. 60 00:02:48,851 --> 00:02:50,971 Erez: But it's, it wasn't really like that at all. 61 00:02:52,031 --> 00:02:55,031 Tisha: No, for the most part it's not going to be that severe at all. 62 00:02:55,031 --> 00:02:59,659 It's just, ... I'm trying to think of a, of an analogy. 63 00:02:59,741 --> 00:03:05,581 Maybe like if you're, [laughs] if you think of a hardwood floor 64 00:03:06,391 --> 00:03:11,831 that's made of little planks of wood that are closely joined together. 65 00:03:12,781 --> 00:03:17,981 And if it's done well, so everything's nice and even, but you run your 66 00:03:17,981 --> 00:03:22,411 fingers over the floor, you'll just feel kind of a teeny little 67 00:03:22,431 --> 00:03:24,724 seam there going between planks. 68 00:03:25,804 --> 00:03:26,364 It's maybe a little- 69 00:03:26,364 --> 00:03:26,874 Erez: I have never done that. 70 00:03:27,934 --> 00:03:27,974 Tisha: [laughs] 71 00:03:27,974 --> 00:03:29,244 Erez: I, I need to do that. 72 00:03:29,244 --> 00:03:30,854 That sounds oddly satisfying. 73 00:03:31,484 --> 00:03:32,364 Tisha: Right. 74 00:03:32,441 --> 00:03:36,451 But even if you haven't done it, maybe you can kind of imagine what it might be like. 75 00:03:36,801 --> 00:03:37,041 Erez: Yeah. 76 00:03:37,143 --> 00:03:43,469 Tisha: We're talking about a small sort of ... texture change. 77 00:03:43,487 --> 00:03:49,327 Well, maybe that's not quite the right word, but maybe more like 78 00:03:49,327 --> 00:03:54,617 a seam than a bump would be a good description in some cases. 79 00:03:55,067 --> 00:03:55,667 Erez: I like it. 80 00:03:55,707 --> 00:03:56,687 I, I can see that. 81 00:03:57,577 --> 00:03:57,667 Tisha: [laughs] 82 00:03:58,297 --> 00:04:01,477 Erez: So if it's that subtle, would you say the, the audio 83 00:04:01,477 --> 00:04:05,717 profile of those switches is, is kinda like the linear ones? 84 00:04:05,717 --> 00:04:08,997 Or is there a difference between, you know, when you're 85 00:04:08,997 --> 00:04:10,557 typing in terms of loudness? 86 00:04:11,187 --> 00:04:11,837 Tisha: Right. 87 00:04:12,197 --> 00:04:17,517 Of course it depends on more than just the switch itself, but for 88 00:04:17,517 --> 00:04:21,986 the most part they are going to be noticeably louder than linear switches. 89 00:04:23,846 --> 00:04:25,596 Erez: They are gonna be noticeably louder? 90 00:04:25,746 --> 00:04:26,626 Tisha: Yes. 91 00:04:27,006 --> 00:04:31,316 Not as loud, you know, so you, you've got kind of the three big 92 00:04:31,326 --> 00:04:35,478 categories, linear, tactile and clicky, and these are in the middle. 93 00:04:35,828 --> 00:04:37,168 Clicky switches are the loudest. 94 00:04:37,256 --> 00:04:40,689 But again, for the most part, they're going to be louder. 95 00:04:40,725 --> 00:04:43,945 There are things hitting other things inside the switch. 96 00:04:45,285 --> 00:04:45,615 Erez: Right. 97 00:04:45,915 --> 00:04:51,188 Tisha: And probably also that extra bit of force that you need, ... to I, I guess 98 00:04:51,218 --> 00:04:56,372 clear for lack of a better word, the tactile bump will will tend to make a 99 00:04:56,372 --> 00:04:57,992 little bit more noise as you're typing. 100 00:04:58,892 --> 00:04:59,832 Erez: I never considered that. 101 00:04:59,832 --> 00:05:03,332 Right, because most of the noise that, at least with non-clicky 102 00:05:03,332 --> 00:05:06,542 switches, I feel most of the noise is kind of plastic-on-plastic, 103 00:05:06,562 --> 00:05:08,532 that thwack as the key bottoms out. 104 00:05:08,782 --> 00:05:09,302 Tisha: Right. 105 00:05:09,382 --> 00:05:12,882 Erez: And yeah, I guess with a tactile switch I will press down harder. 106 00:05:13,112 --> 00:05:16,127 Even if the switch is rated the same as the linear one, it still has that 107 00:05:16,222 --> 00:05:17,652 bump, that yeah, that I got to clear. 108 00:05:17,652 --> 00:05:21,122 So I'll kinda thwack it a little bit harder than, than a linear one. 109 00:05:21,202 --> 00:05:21,992 That makes sense. 110 00:05:22,842 --> 00:05:33,532 Tisha: To me they have a, hm ... a pretty typical mechanical keyboard sound. 111 00:05:34,552 --> 00:05:36,562 Of course, that's a matter of perspective. 112 00:05:36,592 --> 00:05:42,144 I think for a lot of people clicky switches are the stereotypical mechanical 113 00:05:42,144 --> 00:05:47,819 keyboard sound, but there's something about that kind of thwock, thwock sound 114 00:05:48,049 --> 00:05:49,779 that says mechanical keyboard to me. 115 00:05:50,589 --> 00:05:51,209 Erez: Right. 116 00:05:51,499 --> 00:05:56,289 So really before we dive into the three types of Brown switches we 117 00:05:56,289 --> 00:06:03,139 carry, why would, or why do you think most people go for Brown? 118 00:06:03,719 --> 00:06:07,519 Because of that, because of that classic mechanical feel and sound? 119 00:06:08,383 --> 00:06:12,753 Tisha: I think so, and probably for most people, this is, you know, just a 120 00:06:12,753 --> 00:06:19,289 guess, but probably for most people, the feel so that you get a little signal. 121 00:06:20,003 --> 00:06:23,968 Your fingertips feel a little signal when the key is actuated. 122 00:06:24,828 --> 00:06:29,518 With a linear switch, in general, most of them actuate about 123 00:06:29,528 --> 00:06:33,804 halfway down through their travel distance, but you don't get any... 124 00:06:33,914 --> 00:06:37,814 there's no change in the way the switch feels when that happens. 125 00:06:38,124 --> 00:06:38,784 Erez: Right. 126 00:06:38,904 --> 00:06:42,074 Tisha: With a tactile switch there's that little change in the way the 127 00:06:42,074 --> 00:06:46,392 switch feels that kind of goes hand in hand with the actuation. 128 00:06:46,925 --> 00:06:47,585 Erez: I hear, yeah. 129 00:06:47,825 --> 00:06:50,375 And it kind of works together as one system. 130 00:06:50,375 --> 00:06:52,975 Like you feel it and you see it on your screen. 131 00:06:53,305 --> 00:06:53,865 Tisha: Right. 132 00:06:54,025 --> 00:06:54,815 Erez: And yeah. 133 00:06:54,915 --> 00:06:55,705 Yeah, for sure. 134 00:06:57,035 --> 00:07:03,695 So then I guess the, the granddaddy of all Brown switches or really 135 00:07:03,695 --> 00:07:07,215 all tactile switches would be the Cherry MX Brown, right? 136 00:07:08,225 --> 00:07:08,435 Tisha: Yeah. 137 00:07:08,455 --> 00:07:09,485 I would say so. 138 00:07:09,505 --> 00:07:11,885 It's been around a while. 139 00:07:11,885 --> 00:07:13,335 It's very popular. 140 00:07:13,447 --> 00:07:15,437 It's a switch that a lot of people have heard of. 141 00:07:15,587 --> 00:07:15,627 [laughs] 142 00:07:16,487 --> 00:07:16,897 Erez: Right. 143 00:07:17,127 --> 00:07:18,827 It's actually our default, you know,- 144 00:07:18,827 --> 00:07:18,832 Tisha: Right. 145 00:07:18,832 --> 00:07:22,627 ... Erez: when, when we were designing both for the ErgoDox and, and the new 146 00:07:22,660 --> 00:07:27,400 website, ZSA.io, at some point we had to decide, okay, if I've never heard 147 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,180 of switches at all, what's the switch that should be presented as the default? 148 00:07:31,370 --> 00:07:37,447 And yeah, MX Brown really feels like that classic switch, you know? 149 00:07:38,107 --> 00:07:40,237 Like, when in doubt, MX Brown, right? 150 00:07:40,587 --> 00:07:40,887 Tisha: Right. 151 00:07:41,527 --> 00:07:41,977 Yeah. 152 00:07:41,997 --> 00:07:46,641 I think if you're just getting into mechanical keyboards, getting your 153 00:07:46,641 --> 00:07:51,810 first mechanical keyboard, it's a good choice — if you're otherwise not really 154 00:07:51,810 --> 00:07:53,630 sure about exactly what you want. 155 00:07:53,638 --> 00:07:58,748 If you know you want something very quiet or that you prefer something very 156 00:07:58,748 --> 00:08:02,678 loud, then, you know, no, there are other ways to go, but if you just, you know, I 157 00:08:02,678 --> 00:08:09,761 want something that feels good under my fingers that isn't either too heavy or 158 00:08:09,761 --> 00:08:14,221 too light, that gives me a little bit of feedback, this is a nice place to start. 159 00:08:14,867 --> 00:08:15,437 Erez: Nice. 160 00:08:15,887 --> 00:08:20,667 So how would you characterize the feel of a Cherry MX Brown? 161 00:08:20,667 --> 00:08:21,897 So not too heavy, you said. 162 00:08:22,417 --> 00:08:22,747 Tisha: Right. 163 00:08:22,757 --> 00:08:25,356 It is on the lighter side, I would say. 164 00:08:25,396 --> 00:08:30,276 I like to describe it, which is, you know, maybe kind of a wishy-washy 165 00:08:30,276 --> 00:08:35,976 description, but as light/medium because it's not, it's not super 166 00:08:35,976 --> 00:08:37,973 light but it's on the lighter side. 167 00:08:40,083 --> 00:08:42,933 So it's not tiring. 168 00:08:42,943 --> 00:08:49,094 It's easy to type on, but I think you still do get that feeling of 169 00:08:49,223 --> 00:08:51,663 substance, I guess, under your fingers. 170 00:08:52,103 --> 00:08:52,533 Erez: Right. 171 00:08:52,650 --> 00:08:55,780 Tisha: It's not so light that it's, I guess, trivial-feeling. 172 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:57,980 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 173 00:08:58,180 --> 00:09:03,735 One thing people sometimes tell me on the MX Browns (you've probably seen 174 00:09:03,735 --> 00:09:09,085 this as well) some people, I don't know, one in I don't know how many, they say 175 00:09:09,085 --> 00:09:13,145 they ping on the upstroke, like that they press the switch, it's, the switch 176 00:09:13,415 --> 00:09:17,395 is fine, it actuates, but then they let go, and there's like this slight 177 00:09:17,395 --> 00:09:19,775 mechanical ting or something like that. 178 00:09:20,275 --> 00:09:21,885 Really irritates some people. 179 00:09:21,885 --> 00:09:22,895 Have you, have you seen this? 180 00:09:23,675 --> 00:09:25,968 Tisha: I have and you're right. 181 00:09:25,968 --> 00:09:30,498 I don't think that it's ... On one hand I don't think that it's super common. 182 00:09:30,498 --> 00:09:35,731 I don't necessarily think that that's the way they all are, but it can happen. 183 00:09:35,771 --> 00:09:39,948 And also there are some people who are more sensitive to it than others. 184 00:09:40,028 --> 00:09:44,270 Some people who maybe wouldn't, you know, don't even notice it at all and 185 00:09:44,270 --> 00:09:46,350 some for whom it's just super annoying. 186 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:52,999 And it's because, I mean, it's because of there is um, a uh, metal spring 187 00:09:53,009 --> 00:09:56,839 inside and some other little metal parts. 188 00:09:56,922 --> 00:10:01,952 ... It also, I think depends a little bit on how you type. 189 00:10:01,962 --> 00:10:07,772 I think if you're an aggressive typer who tends to hit the keys fairly 190 00:10:07,772 --> 00:10:10,082 hard, you're more likely to get that. 191 00:10:10,082 --> 00:10:16,892 It's kind of almost a little like a metallic impact sound almost 192 00:10:16,954 --> 00:10:21,664 . Erez: As the metal basically deforms back to its default state, kind of. 193 00:10:22,094 --> 00:10:22,474 Tisha: Right. 194 00:10:22,474 --> 00:10:25,714 I think it's as the, the spring is recoiling 195 00:10:26,574 --> 00:10:27,266 ... Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative] 196 00:10:27,266 --> 00:10:27,914 ... Tisha: Basically. 197 00:10:28,284 --> 00:10:28,664 Yeah. 198 00:10:28,714 --> 00:10:34,042 So it can happen, and the Cherry MX Brown, it can happen with this switch, yeah. 199 00:10:34,352 --> 00:10:38,662 I think that some other tactile switches are less prone to it. 200 00:10:38,976 --> 00:10:44,786 Erez: So like, so let's say I wanna, I wanna go tactile, and I'm very 201 00:10:44,786 --> 00:10:46,456 concerned about this potential thing. 202 00:10:46,456 --> 00:10:48,686 It's just, just to clarify, it's not all of them, is it? 203 00:10:48,716 --> 00:10:49,656 Like, it's not- 204 00:10:50,126 --> 00:10:50,716 Tisha: Right. 205 00:10:51,676 --> 00:10:52,586 Erez: It's kind of a... 206 00:10:53,146 --> 00:10:54,646 every now and then type of thing, right? 207 00:10:55,416 --> 00:10:55,916 Tisha: Right. 208 00:10:55,936 --> 00:10:56,816 I would say so. 209 00:10:57,726 --> 00:11:02,626 Erez: But let's say I'm, you know, I'm very sensitive to, to tinking sounds and 210 00:11:02,626 --> 00:11:04,196 what not, but I still wanna go tactile. 211 00:11:04,196 --> 00:11:05,106 What, what would I do? 212 00:11:05,106 --> 00:11:05,926 What would you suggest? 213 00:11:06,836 --> 00:11:11,819 Tisha: Well, the Kailh Box Brown is another tactile switch. 214 00:11:11,819 --> 00:11:12,919 It's another, you know, Brown. 215 00:11:13,479 --> 00:11:13,519 [laughs] 216 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:13,549 Erez: Right. 217 00:11:14,409 --> 00:11:21,344 Tisha: And pretty similar to the Cherry MX Brown, but at least, I guess 218 00:11:21,374 --> 00:11:25,154 in my experience and from what I've heard from users, it doesn't seem 219 00:11:25,154 --> 00:11:27,915 to be so prone to that pingy noise. 220 00:11:29,195 --> 00:11:30,645 Erez: It makes me think... 221 00:11:30,755 --> 00:11:33,205 maybe it's because of the shape of the stem. 222 00:11:33,215 --> 00:11:37,565 Because the Box keys, what makes them ... Well, the Box in the Box 223 00:11:37,565 --> 00:11:41,375 key is the stem of the key is shaped different versus the classic MX 224 00:11:41,385 --> 00:11:44,475 shape, and they are more stable. 225 00:11:44,495 --> 00:11:49,485 I wonder if a part of that ting is due to some vibration on the stem 226 00:11:49,485 --> 00:11:52,815 that the Box Brown just doesn't have because it's a bit sturdier. 227 00:11:53,195 --> 00:11:53,865 Tisha: Right. 228 00:11:53,865 --> 00:11:58,855 Yeah, maybe so, and maybe the extra just kind of plastic, the extra 229 00:11:58,855 --> 00:12:05,185 material in the Box stem, the box part, it provides some insulation. 230 00:12:05,192 --> 00:12:06,022 Erez: Just muffles it. 231 00:12:06,222 --> 00:12:07,122 Tisha: Right. 232 00:12:07,482 --> 00:12:07,492 Erez: Hmm. 233 00:12:08,802 --> 00:12:09,112 Tisha: Yeah. 234 00:12:09,172 --> 00:12:13,332 Actually I don't, I don't know, [laughs] but, but maybe. 235 00:12:13,792 --> 00:12:19,262 Erez: So would you say that just a regular keycap, like a 1U keycap, 236 00:12:19,282 --> 00:12:26,942 ASDF, mounted on a Box switch versus an MX Brown, does it actually feel 237 00:12:26,942 --> 00:12:29,572 more stable on, on a Box switch? 238 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,957 Tisha: Boy, that is a good question. 239 00:12:34,439 --> 00:12:40,369 I think, and any of these differences are gonna be super, super small, I 240 00:12:40,369 --> 00:12:45,982 think that it might feel like the fit is a little tighter but switch 241 00:12:45,982 --> 00:12:50,742 stems have some lateral play built in. 242 00:12:50,782 --> 00:12:56,944 It's by design that keys on a mechanical keyboard feel, I 243 00:12:56,944 --> 00:12:58,344 mean, I guess a little wobbly. 244 00:12:58,344 --> 00:13:02,214 If you put your fingers on the keys and just, without pressing down, just 245 00:13:02,214 --> 00:13:06,111 wiggle, you'll be able to wiggle them a little bit by design because 246 00:13:06,111 --> 00:13:09,868 when we type, our fingers don't go exactly straight up and down. 247 00:13:09,878 --> 00:13:13,488 We hit keys maybe from, from a different angle depending on the row 248 00:13:13,488 --> 00:13:14,978 and their column they're in and stuff. 249 00:13:15,418 --> 00:13:18,568 So the switch stems need to be able to... 250 00:13:18,627 --> 00:13:21,327 need to have a little bit of play to account for that. 251 00:13:21,417 --> 00:13:25,623 If they could only move straight up and down with no wiggle, there would be a 252 00:13:25,623 --> 00:13:28,923 lot of friction when you typed because you're not hitting the keys exactly 253 00:13:28,923 --> 00:13:30,673 straight up and down, if that makes sense. 254 00:13:30,863 --> 00:13:32,243 Erez: The key would lock up on me basically. 255 00:13:32,243 --> 00:13:35,873 I would try to depress it, but because I'm doing it at an angle, it just, it wouldn't 256 00:13:35,873 --> 00:13:41,223 go because it won't translate my angular motion into a straight down, right? 257 00:13:41,543 --> 00:13:45,033 Tisha: Right, or it would, but it would be, there would be a lot of friction, 258 00:13:45,093 --> 00:13:47,073 and it would be kind of difficult. 259 00:13:47,203 --> 00:13:53,347 So because of that, I don't necessarily think they feel more stable in that 260 00:13:53,357 --> 00:14:00,579 there's less wiggle, but I do think that they might fit just a touch more tightly. 261 00:14:00,848 --> 00:14:01,608 Erez: Makes sense. 262 00:14:02,348 --> 00:14:06,988 So then the actual experience of typing on Box Browns versus say 263 00:14:07,318 --> 00:14:10,028 MX Browns, what's the feel like? 264 00:14:10,655 --> 00:14:12,575 Tisha: Again, it's, it's very similar. 265 00:14:12,625 --> 00:14:15,355 They're meant to be quite similar switches. 266 00:14:15,775 --> 00:14:24,355 So all of these differences are small but I feel like the Box Brown has a slightly 267 00:14:24,355 --> 00:14:31,518 gentler tactile bump in that it requires maybe a little bit less force, but it's 268 00:14:31,528 --> 00:14:34,452 also a little bit crisper feeling bump. 269 00:14:35,322 --> 00:14:41,102 The Cherry MX Brown, I tend to describe its tactile bump as being kind of round. 270 00:14:41,362 --> 00:14:43,552 It's kind of like a rounded-off hill. 271 00:14:44,052 --> 00:14:45,102 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 272 00:14:45,342 --> 00:14:49,208 Tisha: The Kailh Box Brown is a little bit, it's got a little 273 00:14:49,208 --> 00:14:51,308 bit more of a peak at the top. 274 00:14:51,868 --> 00:14:53,688 It's a little bit sharper hill. 275 00:14:53,925 --> 00:14:54,595 Erez: Interesting. 276 00:14:54,735 --> 00:15:00,735 And then do I get the letter on my screen before or after that little hill? 277 00:15:00,785 --> 00:15:01,915 Before or after the bump? 278 00:15:02,535 --> 00:15:05,435 Tisha: You get it basically at the same time. 279 00:15:05,445 --> 00:15:13,615 With all of the Brown switches the actuation happens basically at the same 280 00:15:13,625 --> 00:15:16,397 time yeah, as, as the tactile bump. 281 00:15:16,383 --> 00:15:19,014 Erez: That's an important distinction to me because I think when you look 282 00:15:19,014 --> 00:15:22,364 at the graphs and the specs, it seems like, you know, it doesn't happen 283 00:15:22,364 --> 00:15:24,434 at exactly the same point, right? 284 00:15:24,434 --> 00:15:28,760 Just electrically I guess, the contact is, it has to be before or after, but really 285 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,810 in actual use because of the tolerances, it feels like it happens at the same time 286 00:15:32,810 --> 00:15:34,280 when you're just typing at full tilt? 287 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:35,430 Tisha: Right. 288 00:15:35,540 --> 00:15:36,080 Right. 289 00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:36,935 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 290 00:15:36,950 --> 00:15:41,762 Tisha: The Box Brown has a slightly shorter total travel and 291 00:15:41,762 --> 00:15:45,272 pre-travel distance, but we're talking fractions of a millimeter. 292 00:15:45,366 --> 00:15:46,416 So I don't know. 293 00:15:46,739 --> 00:15:49,889 For me, I don't feel a difference. 294 00:15:49,952 --> 00:15:53,712 Certainly there are people who may, but these differences are very, very 295 00:15:53,712 --> 00:15:56,514 small, like, tenths of a millimeter. 296 00:15:57,154 --> 00:15:57,194 [laughs] 297 00:15:57,384 --> 00:15:59,184 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative]. 298 00:16:00,044 --> 00:16:05,094 I guess one thing I can say about the Box Brown switch is, that we found 299 00:16:05,094 --> 00:16:09,937 when we started stocking them is if, if you if people look at our site, 300 00:16:09,937 --> 00:16:15,147 they'll see that we only offer them with the RGB versions of our boards, 301 00:16:15,157 --> 00:16:19,707 the, the ones that light up, because those versions have different keycaps. 302 00:16:19,746 --> 00:16:21,226 Those come from Tai-Hao. 303 00:16:21,401 --> 00:16:25,176 And there are other keycaps for the ErgoDox, for the ErgoDox 304 00:16:25,196 --> 00:16:27,326 EZ, they come from Signature. 305 00:16:27,976 --> 00:16:32,169 And those Signature keycaps can actually break when you mount 306 00:16:32,169 --> 00:16:35,189 them on a Box Brown switch because the stem is shaped different. 307 00:16:35,189 --> 00:16:37,039 And that's, that surprised to me. 308 00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:40,109 That's something we found after we started working with them. 309 00:16:40,179 --> 00:16:43,449 That's when we made the call, okay, we're only gonna ship them with 310 00:16:43,819 --> 00:16:46,199 keycaps that we know to work well with. 311 00:16:47,339 --> 00:16:48,709 Tisha: Right, right. 312 00:16:48,839 --> 00:16:52,429 That's why you'll only see the Kailh Box Brown available for the Moonlander 313 00:16:52,529 --> 00:16:57,759 and for the ErgoDox EZ Glow and and the Planck EZ Glow because we know... 314 00:16:58,349 --> 00:17:03,987 we've tested and know that they work well with the backlit key caps. 315 00:17:04,407 --> 00:17:07,565 But I guess, you know, that ever so slightly tighter fit makes a 316 00:17:07,565 --> 00:17:11,484 difference in that the fit isn't great with the Signature key caps. 317 00:17:11,944 --> 00:17:12,414 Erez: Yeah. 318 00:17:13,444 --> 00:17:13,924 Right. 319 00:17:14,404 --> 00:17:19,764 And that actually, another point here, I guess, is that the Box Brown is an 320 00:17:20,314 --> 00:17:23,234 RGB switch, and people are sometimes a little bit confused about that, right? 321 00:17:23,234 --> 00:17:25,234 They say, okay, RGB, does it have the light in it? 322 00:17:25,574 --> 00:17:26,234 But it doesn't. 323 00:17:26,264 --> 00:17:31,394 It's just a clear housing that lets light through if the board has that light. 324 00:17:32,094 --> 00:17:32,524 Tisha: Right. 325 00:17:32,754 --> 00:17:37,974 You can put an RGB switch on a non-backlit board. 326 00:17:38,714 --> 00:17:39,924 That's no problem at all. 327 00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:45,255 The RGB designation just means, I mean, at, at least in our case, you 328 00:17:45,255 --> 00:17:49,525 know, I can't, [laughs] I can't speak for other people who sell switches and 329 00:17:49,525 --> 00:17:53,575 write their descriptions differently, but in our case, and in most cases that 330 00:17:53,575 --> 00:17:57,135 I've seen, it means that the switch either has completely clear housing 331 00:17:57,445 --> 00:18:03,223 or in some cases like actually with the Box switches, some of the housing 332 00:18:03,233 --> 00:18:06,423 is opaque, but there's a cutout. 333 00:18:06,423 --> 00:18:07,673 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 334 00:18:07,713 --> 00:18:12,779 Tisha: In the switch, in the, in the spot that sits on top of the LED. 335 00:18:12,829 --> 00:18:14,179 Erez: Right, right. 336 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:20,659 So I guess this brings us to the final switch, final Brown switch we offer, 337 00:18:20,869 --> 00:18:23,729 which is actually not RGB friendly, right? 338 00:18:23,729 --> 00:18:24,124 Tisha: Right. 339 00:18:24,519 --> 00:18:25,719 Right, the Kailh Brown. 340 00:18:26,008 --> 00:18:30,098 It's confusing because a lot of switches have really, really similar names. 341 00:18:30,148 --> 00:18:35,472 [laughs] So Kailh Box Brown versus Kailh Brown: they're different switches. 342 00:18:35,730 --> 00:18:40,402 Kailh Brown is a little different than the other two because it's... 343 00:18:40,528 --> 00:18:43,328 it's heavier than both. 344 00:18:43,358 --> 00:18:45,589 It's still obviously a tactile switch. 345 00:18:45,619 --> 00:18:49,915 That's why it's called Brown, [laughs] but it's weightier 346 00:18:49,990 --> 00:18:52,510 and to me it feels springier. 347 00:18:53,400 --> 00:19:00,317 Like you kinda ... as you're typing, at least to me, I feel like, oh yeah, 348 00:19:00,317 --> 00:19:02,147 there is, there are springs inside these. 349 00:19:02,557 --> 00:19:06,657 Erez: In the sense that it pushes back, or as you're pushing down, like. 350 00:19:06,897 --> 00:19:11,101 Tisha: Probably more in the sense that it pushes back, but, ... Yeah, but I, 351 00:19:11,101 --> 00:19:18,431 you know, and maybe I am giving away a bit about my age here, but if you're 352 00:19:18,441 --> 00:19:22,832 someone who ever played with a Slinky when you were a kid I don't know. 353 00:19:22,842 --> 00:19:26,717 It's, it's like, a little bit like typing on lots of tiny little Slinkies. 354 00:19:27,227 --> 00:19:29,997 Erez: [laughs] I like that. 355 00:19:30,537 --> 00:19:31,737 We should put that on the website. 356 00:19:33,287 --> 00:19:37,155 Tisha: It's springy, which, you know, makes it makes it 357 00:19:37,185 --> 00:19:41,155 kind of, I guess both firm and responsive-feeling, I would call it. 358 00:19:41,389 --> 00:19:46,279 Erez: So out of all three, totally subjective, which one is your favorite? 359 00:19:47,149 --> 00:19:49,969 Tisha: Oh boy, that is tough. 360 00:19:50,749 --> 00:19:55,159 [laughs] Well, I have to say I've used Kailh Brown the 361 00:19:55,159 --> 00:19:58,109 least, so it's hard to compare. 362 00:19:59,029 --> 00:20:05,406 I do like a heavier switch, but probably not for heavy typing on all 363 00:20:05,406 --> 00:20:07,486 day long because that can get tiring. 364 00:20:07,756 --> 00:20:08,168 Erez: Mm-hmm. 365 00:20:08,468 --> 00:20:11,938 Tisha: There are [laughs] ... I don't think I can pick. 366 00:20:12,048 --> 00:20:15,338 There are elements of both the Cherry MX Brown and the Kailh 367 00:20:15,358 --> 00:20:16,928 Box Brown that I like a lot. 368 00:20:17,478 --> 00:20:21,738 I've used both as my daily driver for long periods of time. 369 00:20:21,718 --> 00:20:28,038 I think for me the perfect Brown switch would be a little bit of a combination 370 00:20:28,278 --> 00:20:34,262 because I like that the Cherry MX Brown's tactile bump is just a little bit firmer, 371 00:20:34,262 --> 00:20:38,922 just a little bit more noticeable, but I like that the Kailh Box Brown's 372 00:20:39,192 --> 00:20:41,772 tactile bump is just a little crisper. 373 00:20:42,192 --> 00:20:43,354 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative]. 374 00:20:43,465 --> 00:20:46,505 Tisha: So it's, that's a cop-out answer, I know. 375 00:20:46,505 --> 00:20:48,105 It's like, who's your favorite child? 376 00:20:48,115 --> 00:20:49,265 Well, I like them both. 377 00:20:49,274 --> 00:20:51,724 Erez: Actually, actually it's an interesting answer because you made 378 00:20:51,724 --> 00:20:54,564 that distinction, and I can see, you know, I can see what you're saying, 379 00:20:54,564 --> 00:20:55,484 and there's still room, right? 380 00:20:55,484 --> 00:20:58,464 So there's room for yet another Brown switch that kind of melds the two 381 00:20:58,464 --> 00:21:01,154 and, and does it just right, possibly. 382 00:21:01,544 --> 00:21:02,154 Tisha: Right, right. 383 00:21:02,694 --> 00:21:07,774 But again, also these differences are small, and so that means I am happy 384 00:21:07,774 --> 00:21:10,524 to type on both of these switches. 385 00:21:10,574 --> 00:21:12,334 I think they're both nice-feeling. 386 00:21:12,398 --> 00:21:18,508 I think in general people find the Kailh switches to feel a little 387 00:21:18,518 --> 00:21:20,308 smoother than the Cherry switches. 388 00:21:20,349 --> 00:21:20,919 ... Erez: Right. 389 00:21:21,389 --> 00:21:21,899 Tisha: Yeah. 390 00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:22,999 Erez: I do, too. 391 00:21:23,019 --> 00:21:28,399 For me it's not, like when I say that the Kailh ones are smoother, I don't 392 00:21:28,399 --> 00:21:32,789 so much mean in the shape of the bump, but more along the actual stem. 393 00:21:32,809 --> 00:21:37,119 Like as I depress it all the way through, and then it goes up, there's 394 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,139 just something, it almost feels like a lubricated switch, which it's not 395 00:21:41,169 --> 00:21:42,719 out of the factory as far as I know. 396 00:21:42,869 --> 00:21:43,279 Tisha: Right. 397 00:21:43,364 --> 00:21:47,054 Erez: But it feels very pleasant, like very smooth in that regard 398 00:21:47,134 --> 00:21:48,594 rather than the bump itself. 399 00:21:49,024 --> 00:21:49,564 Tisha: Right. 400 00:21:49,657 --> 00:21:54,797 For me I think that that effect is more noticeable on the linear 401 00:21:54,797 --> 00:21:56,717 switches than the tactile. 402 00:21:57,077 --> 00:21:57,387 Erez: Yeah. 403 00:21:57,917 --> 00:22:01,177 Tisha: But I, I, but I know what you mean. 404 00:22:01,537 --> 00:22:02,307 Erez: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. 405 00:22:02,487 --> 00:22:03,067 And I agree. 406 00:22:03,117 --> 00:22:03,437 I agree. 407 00:22:03,437 --> 00:22:06,377 It's a, on a, on a linear switch, that's all you have, right? 408 00:22:06,687 --> 00:22:07,387 Tisha: Right, exactly. 409 00:22:07,387 --> 00:22:10,557 Erez: It's just that up and down motion, so definitely. 410 00:22:10,583 --> 00:22:13,240 That said though, there are other tactile switches, right? 411 00:22:13,764 --> 00:22:14,394 Tisha: There are. 412 00:22:14,444 --> 00:22:19,020 And we'll talk about those in future episodes, but we... 413 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,034 of course there are more out there in the world, but among the switches 414 00:22:23,034 --> 00:22:27,734 that we carry, there's also Kailh Copper and Cherry MX Clear, which 415 00:22:27,734 --> 00:22:32,220 we'll talk about later because they're, they're both more different. 416 00:22:33,580 --> 00:22:36,290 [laughs] The Brown switches are all pretty similar to each other. 417 00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:40,170 The Kailh Copper and Cherry MX Clear switches are different- 418 00:22:40,180 --> 00:22:40,210 Erez: Right. 419 00:22:40,670 --> 00:22:42,390 ... Tisha: from the Browns and from each other. 420 00:22:43,370 --> 00:22:43,910 Erez: Awesome. 421 00:22:45,250 --> 00:22:46,670 Well, thank you so much. 422 00:22:46,910 --> 00:22:47,170 Tisha: Sure. 423 00:22:47,170 --> 00:22:47,690 Thank you. 424 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:48,860 Erez: This was fun. 425 00:22:49,060 --> 00:22:49,340 Tisha: Yeah. 426 00:22:49,390 --> 00:22:50,370 I hope it was helpful. 427 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,050 Erez: [laughs] All right. 428 00:22:52,050 --> 00:22:52,830 See you on the next one. 429 00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:53,330 Tisha: Yep.